Global layman guild review

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Dhez
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Dhez » 03 Aug 2019 08:47

Thank you, Arman. I do see what you mean regarding layman guilds and how that model being followed resulted in guilds being more effective than they were intended to.

I don't really have much to say against your points since you've made it very clear and I think it's a sentiment generally agreed upon by the community on both sides of the spectrum. However, where I think I am not entirely convinced is when you mention the Order of the Stars. Compared to the elemental worshippers and warlocks, the Order of the Stars seems like a fairly balanced guild. Without going too much into detail beyond what's already been publicly discussed: you are in a guild where alignment is strictly locked unlike worshipers and warlocks, and in which you get basically 3 useful spells which lose power respectively when combined with one another, and to get those spells you need to invest an ungodly amount of time and effort. I don't think there has been a community perception of them being overpowered in any sense keeping in mind the guilds it complements by design. If it was up to me in any percentage I wouldn't want to see them become even more underwhelming nor more difficult to progress in or profit from than they are. If you really _must_ change something about them, let it at least be a trade off of sorts, such as: require the healing prayer (the main reason most join the guild) to consume a component (not one heal per consumption, though... You could do something like preparing a concotion using holy water and a herb, which gives you a certain amount of charges) either bought (this would make their guild halls a bit more popular) or farmed, and in return make the title progression slightly less daunting? Even this I suppose would cost a few of the few members currently in the guild.

For the other guilds: I think warlocks have a fair restriction on overlapping maintained spells so that the full power of all of them cannot be used at once. Since the benefits they give can be adjusted, it would be fairly easy to set the values of benefit to the amount understood as correct for a layman magic guild, so you really have to choose wether to be fully defensive or offensive, and in any one of the two scenarios you don't go over the maximum allotted amount of combat aid.

As for Minstrels: indeed, bringing them over to the new system and giving them utility for combat would be great. It's a very neat and rp-oriented neutral guild which is very costly in its skills but not so much in the usage of its currently barely useful spells.

As for the Dragon Order layman version: I've always understood that layman under the same concept of smiths being able to take a layman slot, or thornlin militia or warlocks being able to take an occupational one: something to rp with but nothing that anyone would put themselves through. Since they have to follow the very same strict rules of its occupational branch I'd vote in favor of closing that layman branch and seeing/working on the Dragon Order as an occupational guild that could use some love.

I'd take a look at pbash and tsap from pirates and templars: members of those guilds see those abilities as useless from what I've read. Pirates' pbash could be turned into a dizzing effect that makes the target miss some white hits for x amount of seconds, maybe? If this proves to be too useful in combat, make it require bought bottles to actually break instead of it being a fictitious one. If the bottles are filled with alcohol, the effect is slightly increased. I'm using the logic of power being justified by investment and preparation here, and it'd also serve as a money sink. Also, please remove the invitation system of pirates. I can see no need for it in such a guild, and it opens the door to nepotism and misuse. Meeting a hard coded criteria would be better, such as sailing to the guild hall via charter to different points and searching for a treasure, or a quest requiring killing off merchants in the bloodsea and bringing their loot to an npc would be better.

In any case, thank you for the transparency and open dialogue. It's very refreshing to be able to address these points in a civil manner. Hopefully future posters on the thread will follow suit.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
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sylphan
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by sylphan » 03 Aug 2019 16:28

I'm not sure why someone would want to join the layman version of the AOD, for the reason Dhez points out: same restrictions for half the benefits. There is one spell available through the SoHM that might tempt a person, but that doesn't seem like justification for an entire layman guild.

sylphan
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by sylphan » 03 Aug 2019 18:27

One quick note on the idea that EW should be alignment restricted: thematically, that would make no sense at all. Built into the guildhall itself is the duality of each of the Elementals and their power to both create and destroy. The warlocks guild is another matter; I can understand why people would see it as evil.

Greneth
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Greneth » 03 Aug 2019 20:18

I'll be "that" guy and say that instead of bringing guilds up to par with these super-powered magic guilds I'd much rather see the super-powered guilds get brought back down to the Minstrel level. A layman should be a flavor to the character, not a deciding factor on whether or not you can accomplish something in-game. This is why everyone is arguing over the power of layman guilds, if they were all weak as shit no one would care and pick based on other values such as the design of their character. But since the release of the Worshippers we just keep adding more power here, there, everywhere. And now the challenge is gone, script away.

It's like a broken record being repeated over and over throughout the years. You cannot give so much versatility to guilds, it does not work in a game with no cap. These characters are so roided out it's starting to look like a bodybuilders gym. Said the same thing when the Old MMs just stomped on the entire game. A single guild cannot have the best stealth, best damage, ability to tank and supplemental skills and be called balanced. Unless every other single guild is going to have the same options.

Don't raise up DO Layman, Templars, Pirates, Minstrels, etc. Lower the EW severely, remove spells. Lower Warlocks severely, remove spells. I don't understand why EW/Warlocks (EW being even better than Warlocks) can get to choose between Tanking, Healing, Haste or Damage WHILE having a shield to increase Tanking/Dodging/Damage or whatever resistances they want WHILE adding even more supplemental spells that just happen to be combat-related as well. Versatility is the most underrated thing in this game and it shouldn't be when "There is no Cap". When a Goblin can benefit the same as an Elf or Gnome in a Magic related guild there is a fundamental flaw happening that is being ignored. And that's a whole nother can of worms to bring into the balance of laymans. Also, it does not matter what price you pay be it in tax or coins. You can charge whatever you want and at a certain point both become meaningless. A Myth doesn't give two shits if you tax them 99% of their exp if they get an "I Win" button. Someone like Irk doesn't give two shits if you make him pay 50 plats per spell component, he wipes his ass with that daily.

My crying aside, if there is anything else other than spicing up a few guilds. For all that is sacred, for the love of whatever god or spirituality you believe in out there. Please, please, please change the Blademasters to the Weaponmasters. At the very least give everyone a Neutral option across the board that doesn't change the players character design. Such as having to become a drunk, musical hippie, dragon lover bordering bestiality, gods play thing or a cow to get milked.

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gold bezie
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by gold bezie » 04 Aug 2019 00:48

although i agree partly with greneth here, (except for the ew stronger than warlocks thing) about power... i do like the themes how one can build a character by the choice of a layman guild.
I love the pirate emotes... i love the minstrel theme... keep the alignements in guilds. And i agree with Dhez here about the dragon layman guild. Noone sees the power or rp benefit from that, so why not just remove it or ignore it!
The Order of the Dragon needs some changes, as some other old guilds do, better to give the attention to that.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that.

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Arman
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Arman » 04 Aug 2019 05:59

sylphan wrote:One quick note on the idea that EW should be alignment restricted: thematically, that would make no sense at all. Built into the guildhall itself is the duality of each of the Elementals and their power to both create and destroy. The warlocks guild is another matter; I can understand why people would see it as evil.
That stuff is thematics... that isn't a focus of this review, and is more the bailiwick of the Arch of Domains and the domain Lieges.

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Arman
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Arman » 04 Aug 2019 06:15

Greneth wrote:My crying aside, if there is anything else other than spicing up a few guilds. For all that is sacred, for the love of whatever god or spirituality you believe in out there. Please, please, please change the Blademasters to the Weaponmasters. At the very least give everyone a Neutral option across the board that doesn't change the players character design. Such as having to become a drunk, musical hippie, dragon lover bordering bestiality, gods play thing or a cow to get milked.
That comes down to the thematics of the guild. From a balance point of view, it only highlights we need more layman guild options :). So no, there won't be any changes to expand the Blademasters from this review.

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Arman
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Arman » 04 Aug 2019 06:29

Dhez wrote: As for Minstrels: indeed, bringing them over to the new system and giving them utility for combat would be great. It's a very neat and rp-oriented neutral guild which is very costly in its skills but not so much in the usage of its currently barely useful spells.
I would love to bring them across. And at some point I will... although a simple port won't cut it. I think they would remain a bit underwhelming. There have been some great ideas from players around how minstrels could be quite unique in a team-buffing kind of way that i think could be quite fun!
Dhez wrote: As for the Dragon Order layman version: I've always understood that layman under the same concept of smiths being able to take a layman slot, or thornlin militia or warlocks being able to take an occupational one: something to rp with but nothing that anyone would put themselves through. Since they have to follow the very same strict rules of its occupational branch I'd vote in favor of closing that layman branch and seeing/working on the Dragon Order as an occupational guild that could use some love.
I think once the entire DO guild is transitioned over to the standardised system, and some global changes that are planned happens, they will be a fun option. There is no plans to remove that option at this point.
Dhez wrote: I'd take a look at pbash and tsap from pirates and templars: members of those guilds see those abilities as useless from what I've read.
If you have a bucket of combat aid, and pour most of it in to a defensive special and the rest of it in to an offensive special, yes... it would not be terribly impressive. Most layman guilds do this though... have a focus rather than everything in one bucket, and that is a design approach that will largely be maintained.

Having said that, there is quite a bit of flexibility to be able to switch between offensive and defensive abilities for some guilds i've noticed. Certainly for AA, Thornlin Militia, and Templars.
Dhez wrote: Also, please remove the invitation system of pirates. I can see no need for it in such a guild, and it opens the door to nepotism and misuse. Meeting a hard coded criteria would be better, such as sailing to the guild hall via charter to different points and searching for a treasure, or a quest requiring killing off merchants in the bloodsea and bringing their loot to an npc would be better.
I personally dislike invitation systems for all layman guilds. I am not a big fan of it for occupational guilds either (would love to remove it from AA.. always preferred the old system). But that is a thematic decision... largely up to the guildmaster/liege of the domain to make those calls.

Having said that, I am the liege responsible for the pirates. I could remove it... but probably wouldn't without consulting with its membership first.

Kvator
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Kvator » 04 Aug 2019 10:17

Arman wrote: That stuff is thematics...
Not including 'thematics' (strict align restrictions, allowed races etc) in balance 'big picture' is a fundamental mistake in these calculations imho. Such limits / bonuses impact actual gameplay heavily.

And remove align btw :P

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Arman
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Arman » 04 Aug 2019 11:22

Kvator wrote:
Arman wrote: That stuff is thematics...
Not including 'thematics' (strict align restrictions, allowed races etc) in balance 'big picture' is a fundamental mistake in these calculations imho. Such limits / bonuses impact actual gameplay heavily.

And remove align btw :P
Using thematics/roleplay as a justification for exceptional powers doesn't fly anymore. And there is enough flexibility in the system to allow for creative solutions outside of the standard caid cap, as long as appropriate disadvantages are incorporated in to it to balance it out.

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