Re: Global layman guild review
Posted: 03 Aug 2019 08:47
Thank you, Arman. I do see what you mean regarding layman guilds and how that model being followed resulted in guilds being more effective than they were intended to.
I don't really have much to say against your points since you've made it very clear and I think it's a sentiment generally agreed upon by the community on both sides of the spectrum. However, where I think I am not entirely convinced is when you mention the Order of the Stars. Compared to the elemental worshippers and warlocks, the Order of the Stars seems like a fairly balanced guild. Without going too much into detail beyond what's already been publicly discussed: you are in a guild where alignment is strictly locked unlike worshipers and warlocks, and in which you get basically 3 useful spells which lose power respectively when combined with one another, and to get those spells you need to invest an ungodly amount of time and effort. I don't think there has been a community perception of them being overpowered in any sense keeping in mind the guilds it complements by design. If it was up to me in any percentage I wouldn't want to see them become even more underwhelming nor more difficult to progress in or profit from than they are. If you really _must_ change something about them, let it at least be a trade off of sorts, such as: require the healing prayer (the main reason most join the guild) to consume a component (not one heal per consumption, though... You could do something like preparing a concotion using holy water and a herb, which gives you a certain amount of charges) either bought (this would make their guild halls a bit more popular) or farmed, and in return make the title progression slightly less daunting? Even this I suppose would cost a few of the few members currently in the guild.
For the other guilds: I think warlocks have a fair restriction on overlapping maintained spells so that the full power of all of them cannot be used at once. Since the benefits they give can be adjusted, it would be fairly easy to set the values of benefit to the amount understood as correct for a layman magic guild, so you really have to choose wether to be fully defensive or offensive, and in any one of the two scenarios you don't go over the maximum allotted amount of combat aid.
As for Minstrels: indeed, bringing them over to the new system and giving them utility for combat would be great. It's a very neat and rp-oriented neutral guild which is very costly in its skills but not so much in the usage of its currently barely useful spells.
As for the Dragon Order layman version: I've always understood that layman under the same concept of smiths being able to take a layman slot, or thornlin militia or warlocks being able to take an occupational one: something to rp with but nothing that anyone would put themselves through. Since they have to follow the very same strict rules of its occupational branch I'd vote in favor of closing that layman branch and seeing/working on the Dragon Order as an occupational guild that could use some love.
I'd take a look at pbash and tsap from pirates and templars: members of those guilds see those abilities as useless from what I've read. Pirates' pbash could be turned into a dizzing effect that makes the target miss some white hits for x amount of seconds, maybe? If this proves to be too useful in combat, make it require bought bottles to actually break instead of it being a fictitious one. If the bottles are filled with alcohol, the effect is slightly increased. I'm using the logic of power being justified by investment and preparation here, and it'd also serve as a money sink. Also, please remove the invitation system of pirates. I can see no need for it in such a guild, and it opens the door to nepotism and misuse. Meeting a hard coded criteria would be better, such as sailing to the guild hall via charter to different points and searching for a treasure, or a quest requiring killing off merchants in the bloodsea and bringing their loot to an npc would be better.
In any case, thank you for the transparency and open dialogue. It's very refreshing to be able to address these points in a civil manner. Hopefully future posters on the thread will follow suit.
I don't really have much to say against your points since you've made it very clear and I think it's a sentiment generally agreed upon by the community on both sides of the spectrum. However, where I think I am not entirely convinced is when you mention the Order of the Stars. Compared to the elemental worshippers and warlocks, the Order of the Stars seems like a fairly balanced guild. Without going too much into detail beyond what's already been publicly discussed: you are in a guild where alignment is strictly locked unlike worshipers and warlocks, and in which you get basically 3 useful spells which lose power respectively when combined with one another, and to get those spells you need to invest an ungodly amount of time and effort. I don't think there has been a community perception of them being overpowered in any sense keeping in mind the guilds it complements by design. If it was up to me in any percentage I wouldn't want to see them become even more underwhelming nor more difficult to progress in or profit from than they are. If you really _must_ change something about them, let it at least be a trade off of sorts, such as: require the healing prayer (the main reason most join the guild) to consume a component (not one heal per consumption, though... You could do something like preparing a concotion using holy water and a herb, which gives you a certain amount of charges) either bought (this would make their guild halls a bit more popular) or farmed, and in return make the title progression slightly less daunting? Even this I suppose would cost a few of the few members currently in the guild.
For the other guilds: I think warlocks have a fair restriction on overlapping maintained spells so that the full power of all of them cannot be used at once. Since the benefits they give can be adjusted, it would be fairly easy to set the values of benefit to the amount understood as correct for a layman magic guild, so you really have to choose wether to be fully defensive or offensive, and in any one of the two scenarios you don't go over the maximum allotted amount of combat aid.
As for Minstrels: indeed, bringing them over to the new system and giving them utility for combat would be great. It's a very neat and rp-oriented neutral guild which is very costly in its skills but not so much in the usage of its currently barely useful spells.
As for the Dragon Order layman version: I've always understood that layman under the same concept of smiths being able to take a layman slot, or thornlin militia or warlocks being able to take an occupational one: something to rp with but nothing that anyone would put themselves through. Since they have to follow the very same strict rules of its occupational branch I'd vote in favor of closing that layman branch and seeing/working on the Dragon Order as an occupational guild that could use some love.
I'd take a look at pbash and tsap from pirates and templars: members of those guilds see those abilities as useless from what I've read. Pirates' pbash could be turned into a dizzing effect that makes the target miss some white hits for x amount of seconds, maybe? If this proves to be too useful in combat, make it require bought bottles to actually break instead of it being a fictitious one. If the bottles are filled with alcohol, the effect is slightly increased. I'm using the logic of power being justified by investment and preparation here, and it'd also serve as a money sink. Also, please remove the invitation system of pirates. I can see no need for it in such a guild, and it opens the door to nepotism and misuse. Meeting a hard coded criteria would be better, such as sailing to the guild hall via charter to different points and searching for a treasure, or a quest requiring killing off merchants in the bloodsea and bringing their loot to an npc would be better.
In any case, thank you for the transparency and open dialogue. It's very refreshing to be able to address these points in a civil manner. Hopefully future posters on the thread will follow suit.