Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

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nils
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Re: Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

Post by nils » 01 Mar 2020 20:03

And oh,

Layman guilds with councils have always irked me, needless to say I'm sure anyone can drink a lot of rum, put on an eye-patch, chop off their leg and call themselves a pirate. I've never understood why that guild needed to be anything but free to join.

As for alternate options or 'a more open joining process' see dragonarmies, calians and elemental worshippers (a big ass thumb up for free-to-join here as well btw) on how anyone can enter an early stage recruit-state, try out the guild in a weaker capacity with restricted access to guild specific rooms etc.

Enabling a global line of communication for all guilds where recruits can participate could also be called 'opening up'.
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

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Arman
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Re: Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

Post by Arman » 02 Mar 2020 02:02

nils wrote:
01 Mar 2020 16:14
Cherek wrote:
01 Mar 2020 16:03
Nils: Unless I am completely mistaken AA was free to join during it's most successful time in Genesis history? People still talk fondly of the "Angmar feel" in the guild from back then (despite it being free to join).

There's no reason active guild leaders cannot create a good environment, even for RP, in a free to join guild. I mean, guild leaders would still have the power to kick members who don't follow the standards.

I totally understand the possible problems with free to join guilds, and that guild feeling, community, RP, etc can take a hit. On the other hand, it doesn't have to become that way. It's still up the the leaders to decide the direction of their guild, and let new recruits know what is expected of them, and what will happen if they fail.

I joined the Army of Angmar for the first time right before the Angmar Wars broke out, and definitely had to apply back then so I think you're 'completely mistaken'.

It's not only roleplay and community that take a hit, racks, libraries etc can become victim of Turk-like characters too.
I vote a big fat no. The Army of Angmar has an active council and is one of the most active guilds in Genesis. Fixing what isn't broke is a bad idea.
You are actually completely mistaken Nils. The Army of Angmar was 100% free to join until Avatar's captaincy... so would have only been added post re-opening. There were a handful of Final Judges with the original who were the council who could expel members and block access, but that was about it. They weren't even the leaders of the guild, which were reserved for the most powerful and evil of members... titles that chaotically changed regularly. Such as when Monika joined and became the captain almost overnight, caused a schism with the Morgul Mages resulting in their lay membership leaving and hunting her down... stuff like that was pretty common! The glory days :)

What do you mean by Turk-like characters? It doesn't make sense.

The reason why we are proposing this sort of change is because the system is pretty broken. We have all these guilds with minimal player activity... two years running we've had our top three active guilds being those with minimal restriction or no join restrictions in mercs, SoHM, and Dragonarmies. The combined activity of the 17 other occupational guilds is less than these three.

A change to recruitment may lead to a better dispersion of activity out of the mercs in particular, but like i flagged at the beginning we want your thoughts. There are some guilds like the Calians and Knights where the code is actually pretty supportive of easy join and progression, but the guild councils don't necessarily allow it to happen that way. And those reasons may be valid... we just wonder whether those reasons could be managed when those players are in the guild rather than waiting in frustration for months to join in some cases.

Raelle
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Re: Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

Post by Raelle » 02 Mar 2020 07:30

Nils meant Tyrk, the ogre.

The guilds listed: on what basis were they selected?

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Mim
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Re: Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

Post by Mim » 02 Mar 2020 11:29

Dhez wrote:
01 Mar 2020 17:24
At the moment, realistically, what we have isn't hardcore lore and RP in our beloved game. What we have is real people sitting behind keyboards holding real grudges and using their power to restrict aspects of the game to people they simply do not like. There are cases of justified lore to do this, but most of the times it is simply a misuse of power.
If this is the case it really is bad.
I would myself much prefer a totally open solution.
As an explorer, you have done enough to retire.

Thalric
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Re: Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

Post by Thalric » 02 Mar 2020 18:00

Mim wrote:
02 Mar 2020 11:29
Dhez wrote:
01 Mar 2020 17:24
At the moment, realistically, what we have isn't hardcore lore and RP in our beloved game. What we have is real people sitting behind keyboards holding real grudges and using their power to restrict aspects of the game to people they simply do not like. There are cases of justified lore to do this, but most of the times it is simply a misuse of power.
If this is the case it really is bad.
I would myself much prefer a totally open solution.
I don't believe it is like this. At least not as common as this makes it sound.
It sounds very much as if someone feel slighted and left out of somewhere.

But that is the general issue when the topic is guilds and leaderships. It always comes up that someone feel that some or more councils are just holding on tight to their positions, even when it might not be the case.
But this is so very subjective...

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Arman
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Re: Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

Post by Arman » 03 Mar 2020 00:23

Raelle wrote:
02 Mar 2020 07:30
Nils meant Tyrk, the ogre.

The guilds listed: on what basis were they selected?
Thanks for clarifying!

The criteria was pretty loose... was an organic discussion. Started with knights and Inventors (both player feedback), segued to Calians (inactive leadership) and Angmar (past free-to-join structure). And we touched on whether standalone layman guilds should really have a guild leadership (i.e. Pirates). I added Neidar to the list as I was writing the post.

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nils
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Re: Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

Post by nils » 03 Mar 2020 01:02

I gotta wonder Arman, do you purposefully lie to try and alter the truth to suit some agena of yours?

If the guild was free to join, why do I sit here and read my own application to the Army of Angmar as an adventurer in the late nineties? If the guild was ever free to join it must have been before I took my first steps in '97. I remember this vividly because at the time I hadn't written a single text voluntarily, particularly an english one, in my life. I hated every bit of it, but I'm a better man for it. Are you saying I remember a milestone in my life wrong?
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

Saimon
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Re: Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

Post by Saimon » 03 Mar 2020 01:05

If I can add my 2 cc. I like the idea. But there are a lot of but...

1. All guilds that would be changed in that way should be recoded a bit. Access to the some guilds locations (like drop rooms, libraries, maybe some shops, etc) should be granted only after promotion of new guild member by any guild council member

2. All libraries should be recoded and access by rank levels should be introduced. Guild councils and guild members should have time to reorganize library after this recode and maybe write a few new books for newcomers

3. Council members should have ability to kick out players form guild and ban them form new joining. This kick out should be with some penalty and not for free. There should be a list in the guild with players ban to join guild.

4. Logs of racks and chests in drop rooms should be added to allow Council members control if someone is not a chest looter.

In my oppinion all lay guilds should be free to join. If we want to keep councils in lay guilds, they should be recoded in the same way as occ guilds with recoded pointed above.
In fact there is only one lay guild that could stay not free to join, but in fact this guild in not playable. Im thinking about lay Monks. They are close connected lay with occ and as far as I know you can upgrade your membership from lay Monk to occ Monk without acceptance of the council.
The best would be to separate lay Monks from occ Monks and recode them to make them playable guild....
Rest of lay guilds including EW should be free to join.

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Mersereau
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Re: Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

Post by Mersereau » 03 Mar 2020 01:20

Is there a valid reason any layman guild should have a lengthy application process?

Furthermore, given the list of guilds you mentioned, what's to stop someone from joining the DA, looting the racks, leaving, then joining Calia?
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
-Mel Brooks

Saimon
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Re: Musing changes to guild recruitment restrictions

Post by Saimon » 03 Mar 2020 01:35

Mersereau wrote:
03 Mar 2020 01:20
Furthermore, given the list of guilds you mentioned, what's to stop someone from joining the DA, looting the racks, leaving, then joining Calia?
Do you have access the the racks as fresh, free to join not jet soldier of DA?

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