Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

A place to discuss all the ins and outs of equipment in the Genesis Donut. Warning: Spoilers may be included. Only validated game players will see this forum.
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Tarlok
Apprentice
Posts: 37
Joined: 27 Aug 2018 12:33

Re: Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

Post by Tarlok » 22 May 2020 21:11

I do agree with Nils on much of this:

I think spawn rates for artifacts are too low. The molten bladed dagger is ok, but it was upped in drop rate after much complaining by a very vocal person. But most of the other artifacts I hunt for are never present. I am really tired of perma killing mobs with garbage on them. If I could turn 10 thick rugged platemails in for a midnight black platemail that would help, then at least I'd have a path to obtaining one... I haevnt seen an abbasi from Arlenn since the change to perma save and I've probably killed him 100 times. Perhaps it would be easier to make artifact drop rates around 25% and never lower?

The duration of dulling and breaking also needs to be revised. As Nils said dulling weapons should last a decent fraction of what a non dulling one does, then the dulling property isnt so godly. I think a dulling weapon should generally dull slow enough so that it can make it through about 1/2 of what a non dulling lasts for.

Armours also wear down way too fast, especially those armours that cover multiple slots. I'd also like to see some unbreakable armours, I think making new unbreakable things is completely appropriate given they wont last more than 90 days anyways.

User avatar
nils
Expert
Posts: 295
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

Re: Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

Post by nils » 22 May 2020 21:27

Yeah, killing mobs with trash 10 times, even 20 times, can all be chalked down to bad luck. The closer and closer you get to 100 you start to feel like the game is rigged.

That said, we struck 'gold' and found an abbasi the other day. It too was ground to pieces in hours though.
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

Tarlok
Apprentice
Posts: 37
Joined: 27 Aug 2018 12:33

Re: Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

Post by Tarlok » 22 May 2020 21:31

Oh and I also agree that each weapon type should have a chance to earn a weapon of similar quality to the fabled FBB. I think coding an elite artifact would be amongst the funnest thing as a wizard and yet noone has done it... I wonder why.

A two handed elite knife is of no use to anyone though and is a mockery to knife users. I would like to see a knife that can beat a sword of light in hit and pen. Is there some administrivia or red tape that limits knives to perma sucking? If so it may be time to toss that rule out since we are embracing equality.

User avatar
Arman
Wizard
Posts: 594
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

Post by Arman » 23 May 2020 04:06

Great post Nils. Some good topics raised.
nils wrote:
22 May 2020 19:35
Dulling
The Genesis rumour mill dictates:
*The Arch of Balance "doesn't like" undulling weapons. I guess that's his prerogative, but -we do-.
*There is a rule saying undulling weapons aren't allowed/another undulling weapon will never be introduced to the game.
There is a little bit more context around that. I don't like non-dulling uber weapons with specials. You won't see one of those in the game again. But I am not against undulling. I have given the green light for one just recently. But there is an unhealthy lean towards them.

I think you are right though in your broader point... your average weapon dulls/breaks too fast. We've talked before about changing how weapons/armours wear and can be repaired before... pulled together some grand plans even to align with a revision of smithing. But I don't think that is going to happen in the near future, so I am open into looking in to modifying the current rate of weapon wear. Would appreciate insights from you all in relation to how long weapons currently last.
nils wrote:
22 May 2020 19:35
'Epic' weapons skewed in swords' favour
This has been a pet-peeve of mine for a long time. Some weapons are more plentiful than others (yes, I'm pointing at swords). I know Zugzug had his complaints about polearms, and certain Neidars have voiced theirs regarding axes and I'll voice mine in regards to clubs. To put it plainly, there are no 'flaming black broadsword'-equivalents in the other weapon types, and this should be remedied. Now the encounters can be difficult in the way killing the nazgul is nigh impossible without proper preparations, but still doable.

Now imagine if you've spent hours preparing for the battle following a long wait for the opportune moment where all your friends who fullfill certain requirements are online and you barely succeed in aquiring said equivalent, but it dulled like it was made of paper - wouldn't that be... silly?
There are two points there. One, the prevalence of a diverse range of weapons across the weapon types. The second is around good weapons dulling too fast.

The second point goes back to my earlier point around not liking the uber-do-everything weapons. I am totally in favour of weapons with pros and cons, and no "one weapon to rule them all". I am totally ok with FBBs dulling, and that players have to decide in what battles they want to use this valuable weapon. But I agree they may dull too fast.

The first point is true, however it has gotten progressively better over the decades. There are alpha weapons across all the weapon types now with their pros and cons. FBB is good but dulls. Crystal axe may not hit as well or hard, but is one-handed, non-dulls, and has a special. The ogres sledgehammer is an alpha weapon... no doubt that in my opinion is probably better than the FBB on balance etc etc.
nils wrote:
22 May 2020 19:35
Imbuements
In the discussion regarding the 5-day rule, many ideas were tossed about, any updates on the following:
* "We might bring back ironstones"
* If you manually imbue an item, let's say an undulling one, can this lengthen it's time in combat to make up for the tremendous investment this actually is?

Now could, let's just take some arbitrary numbers (admin decides) and say: A faint imbue 2 extra days, pronounced 6 days and intense 12 days, be worth implementing? I'm not suggesting this should count for found imbues, only those made.

Cause reality right now is that making intense imbues, even on undulling items, is basically.. a waste.
I thought we did bring back ironstones? I thought I turned that back on.

In conversations with Gorboth, he expressed an opinion that there was a greater addiction to top level imbues than what was his intention when he introduced them, and this became worse with perma gear. I get that intense imbues take a long time to accrue, but it was never his intention that people would be running around constantly with intense imbues on all their gear.

I am not totally against the idea of being able to extend days equipment can last... but i think i'd prefer it linked to something like the smiths craft guild.
nils wrote:
22 May 2020 19:35
Lastly,
Equipment spawn rates
The rumour mill hasn't said anything about adjustment of equipment spawn rates, but these last months have been depressing. You expect us to accept 'dulling is the way of life' without providing enough items to enable replenishment?

Now I have kept a rust-red mace from the beast in Raumdor in my pack since last I found one, as a back up. Thankfully, I've never had to use it, but it is the second best club in the game and I feel privileged to own one for all the following, wrong, reasons:
.. I've killed the beast daily, sometimes multiple times a day
.. I haven't seen one for sale in the auction house
.. I haven't seen anyone use one

Right now it's description says:
Judging by its age and how much it appears to have been used in combat you determine that it will last a minimum of 1 day and a maximum of 19 days before it succumbs to wear and tear.

That means it's 70+ days since I last saw one.. Something is avry. Can we discuss spawn rates?
I do get this raised as an issue from a number of sources. And I do discuss this semi-regularly with Cotillion, who is the master of game data. We do know exactly to multiple decimal points the frequency of each magical weapon clone. And we also know that guild racks don't suffer from lack of equipment. So our position at the moment isn't to change spawn rates.

I definitely won't argue that players perceive a spawn rarity issue. But maybe that's not such a bad thing... you point it out yourself... getting hold of such weapons is special.

Also, if changes are made to dulling rates, this would be less of an issue right?

Thalric
Great Adventurer
Posts: 161
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

Post by Thalric » 23 May 2020 07:49

FBB doesn't dull, as things are now.
Which makes it so incredibly amazing, being on top of it's other stats and specials.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1417
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

Post by Amberlee » 23 May 2020 08:51

Arman.
Realize this.
With the current item spawn rate in the game undulling isn't an option, it's a necessity.
Especially for the casual player.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Thalric
Great Adventurer
Posts: 161
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

Post by Thalric » 23 May 2020 09:08

Amberlee wrote:
23 May 2020 08:51
Arman.
Realize this.
With the current item spawn rate in the game undulling isn't an option, it's a necessity.
Especially for the casual player.
The casual player isn't grinding 14 hours a day, and therefore don't feel like weapons are breaking in no time. I would say that casual players are those feeling it the least.
Personally I would rather we remove the non-dull entirely and instead increase the drop rates on all the good items.
I know this puts a dent in prog/hour, but perhaps it's healthy that people also have to mentally present once in a while and not just run on a script 10+ hours a day.

User avatar
Mersereau
Champion
Posts: 556
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 01:05
Contact:

Re: Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

Post by Mersereau » 23 May 2020 09:16

nils wrote:
22 May 2020 20:19
Surely there should exist a flaming black broadsword-equivalent two-handed knife as well as a polearm, axe and club.
There should?

Why?

Show your work.

Basically saying a weapon should have an equal counterpart in other wieldable items makes for a terribly boring game.
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
-Mel Brooks

User avatar
nils
Expert
Posts: 295
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

Re: Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

Post by nils » 23 May 2020 11:13

Mersereau wrote:
23 May 2020 09:16
nils wrote:
22 May 2020 20:19
Surely there should exist a flaming black broadsword-equivalent two-handed knife as well as a polearm, axe and club.
There should?

Why?

Show your work.

Basically saying a weapon should have an equal counterpart in other wieldable items makes for a terribly boring game.

Whether or not a balanced game is boring is totally an oppinion you are entitled to have, and I'm glad you voiced yours instead of taking things out of cont.. wait.. you did it again!

When did you last play, Mers? A decade ago? Do you even care, or are you trolling as usual?

In case it wasnt clear - Im not missing flaming black 'weapontype', Im missing their equal counterparts.

FBB: undull, max stats, additional fire damage on basically every hit
Polearm equivalent: max stats, undull, additional temporary paralysis and extra damage vs opposite alignment
Axe equivalent: max stats, undull, additional bleed damage
Club equivalent: max stats, undull, bone breaking ability with short crowd control if legs break + DoT due to fractures.
Obviously a two-handed knife is an absurdity by its very nature, but then there should be a one-handed equivalent: max stats (lower according to some rules set in stones for some reason), undull, additional two-handed damage and maybe a neverending, magical, poison supply.


Now, they are obviously only available 50% the time, and the difficulty and danger rating equal or worse than killing the nazgul. These are not common items; these are top shelf, hard to get weapons which might require cooperation with (subjectively) unsavory people, and cause guilds, whom the wielder is an important part of, to go apeshit to get their artefact back. Maybe they even gain some extra favor if said item is returned.

The reality is that 99,9% of the population wont be able to obtain the item untill a very late stage in their character's life, but the legend keeps said person in the game for years amassing knowledge, relations, skill and size to, maybe, end up successfully owning one.

The only weapon type that has this class of its own item are swords, so the rest of us have no such item to, maybe, someday, get our hands on and have the time of our lives while being chased by a bunch of angry players wanting it back.

Worth it imo.
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

Nerull
Wizard
Posts: 77
Joined: 05 Jul 2014 23:24

Re: Dulling vs undulling weapons and more.

Post by Nerull » 23 May 2020 11:17

But..it would make it more fair and balanced, yes? I think it's a good gamedesign that similar opportunities regarding game itemization exists for all, and not just for some.

So, FBB is very hard to come by, therefore, other weapons of same category needs the same "challenge rating". That would be fair and proper, and the bonus with this is, players will most likely no longer complain about this issue as its removed from the equation. May I label this as a "raid item", with some risks attached, as opposed to weapons you can solo?

But, with lesser nondull weapons, I think: If you can solo it, there probably should be some compromises in item potency, making the item fine enough for consistent grinding, but not peak dps.

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/