Changes to Equipment

A place to discuss all the ins and outs of equipment in the Genesis Donut. Warning: Spoilers may be included. Only validated game players will see this forum.
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Snedecor
Wanderer
Posts: 69
Joined: 09 Feb 2015 22:29

Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Snedecor » 03 Jan 2021 15:15

It's not just those though.

And have you hunted in Raumdor? It's terrible. Most enemies don't even have the opportunity to have them on that spawn (shades and trolls and wraiths and spectres and hands and mists). It's not just the greaves and bracers though. It's the skullplate, the midnight black platemail and great black skull, and now it's also shells. Do you know how quickly a dedicated tank runs through shells?? Lucky to have one last in good condition through one solid day of grinding. And now they're rare too? It's annoying enough to have to go out on the sea even as a mariner.

I haven't ever gotten any of these things but once since I returned to the realms. That's been 8 months if I recall rightly.

That's one thing in a game where these ultra armours last and last. It's a whole other in a game where they last a (generously, because they don't last that long) maximum of 4 days, and start degrading even prior to that.

There's a fine line between making something an awesome find and just torturing people with hopelessness. This is over that line. As a former extremely dedicated EQ hunter prior to all the changes, and I mean dedicated with lots of hours primarily to the art of EQ hunting, I managed to keep myself almost always stocked with great gear and also to hand out a few to allies.

But making everyone spend the entirety of the day EQ hunting in order to achieve partial optimality in the face of such extreme odds is just insane. It removes player choice and, frankly, enjoyment.

sylphan
Veteran
Posts: 233
Joined: 12 Nov 2017 19:56

Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by sylphan » 03 Jan 2021 17:48

Cherek wrote:
03 Jan 2021 13:36
Considering the quality level of the sturdy greaves and bracers, they SHOULD be rare. They never should have been as common as they were. I get that it sucks from a personal perspective, but I that think if you look at the bigger picture, you'll also agree that they were too easy to get before?
You seem to be reducing Snedecor's objection (and mine and others') to an insistence that things go back the way they were, rather than stay the way they are now. We're saying they are too rare and hard to get right now -- you've gone too far; that is not tantamount to saying that they should go back the way they were. Surely you understand this distinction, no? I don't get why you're representing the complaint as "it should go back the way it was." Who is saying that?

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3211
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Cherek » 03 Jan 2021 18:30

Sylphan: If someone says "these changes suck", it kind of implies that they liked things as they were before the change and would prefer the changes reverted? That's what I replied to. It sure sounded like Snedecor wanted things to go back the way they were, and that's why I said I do not think we should do that. If I am mistaken, and neither of you want things reverted (just tweaked), then fine, I take that back. Sorry if I assumed things.

And like I also said in my previous post, maybe it needs to be further tweaked. Many items were, no doubt, too common before, but have they become too rare now? Maybe? Like I said, if it turns out some things are just too rare we may have to up the droprate on some items. Nothing is ever set in stone, and obviously we also listen to your feedback. Not everyone feel this is a bad change though, several players have also spoken up en favor of the changes. So... as always it's hard to know the exact sweetspot between too rare and too common.

Rache
Wanderer
Posts: 60
Joined: 05 Aug 2019 22:31
Location: Kaiserslautern

Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Rache » 03 Jan 2021 18:47

Cherek wrote:
03 Jan 2021 18:30
So... as always it's hard to know the exact sweetspot between too rare and too common.
I think this is all people are asking for. I don't think every time you kill the death knight you should get the bracers as a pity reward. "No skullplate? It's ok man, here's some bracers." But I think it's reasonable to find a pair of bracers and greaves if you were to clean the entire forest of Raumdor. But just not 5-6 pairs like before.

When the pendulum swings too far in either direction, it's typically detrimental. Is this something we could look at?

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3211
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Cherek » 03 Jan 2021 18:55

Snedecor wrote:
03 Jan 2021 15:15
It's not just those though.

And have you hunted in Raumdor? It's terrible. Most enemies don't even have the opportunity to have them on that spawn (shades and trolls and wraiths and spectres and hands and mists). It's not just the greaves and bracers though. It's the skullplate, the midnight black platemail and great black skull, and now it's also shells. Do you know how quickly a dedicated tank runs through shells?? Lucky to have one last in good condition through one solid day of grinding. And now they're rare too? It's annoying enough to have to go out on the sea even as a mariner.

I haven't ever gotten any of these things but once since I returned to the realms. That's been 8 months if I recall rightly.

That's one thing in a game where these ultra armours last and last. It's a whole other in a game where they last a (generously, because they don't last that long) maximum of 4 days, and start degrading even prior to that.

There's a fine line between making something an awesome find and just torturing people with hopelessness. This is over that line. As a former extremely dedicated EQ hunter prior to all the changes, and I mean dedicated with lots of hours primarily to the art of EQ hunting, I managed to keep myself almost always stocked with great gear and also to hand out a few to allies.

But making everyone spend the entirety of the day EQ hunting in order to achieve partial optimality in the face of such extreme odds is just insane. It removes player choice and, frankly, enjoyment.
Yes, I have always played the game now and then relatively regularly, so I am fully aware of how annoying the Drakmere forest can be. I also know how fragile the shells are and how to get them. For players above champion it (was) relatively easy to get several copies fairly easy and quickly, it's also light and very good. It's only real drawback was is that it is a bit fragile. I don't know the stats of it, or other shields, but speaking as a player only, would say it's one of the top-3 best shields in the game, and for most bigger players, very easy to get. It would not take very long to have "many" in your racks. I think that was far too easy for such a good item.

Now, if I understand you correctly, you're saying you haven't found a single dragon turtle shell in 8 months? That is what you wrote, but I am not sure if you actually meant that? Or did you?

Because, right now, there 220 dragon turtle shells in the game. And that only counts shells that are used by players that are currently logged in, and shells that are stored in guilds/hiding places, etc. It does NOT count all the shells that offline players have in their inventories, so we can probably add a hundred or so (or more) to that number. That's A LOT of really good shields.

There are also tons (several hundreds) of sturdy bracers an greaves in the game, and a decent amount of great black skulls and midnight black platemails as well. Compared to the time when there was a set limit of a item per Armageddon, we have a lot MORE copies of many items now as well. I mean, there used to be only 5 copies per Armageddon of some items. We're way over those numbers now, for all items. It's easy to only notice a nerf, but some items are also far more common than in the past.

That said, we of course need to find a good balance here. I strongly believe the really good stuff SHOULD be rare, and for example turtle shells and sturdy greaves/bracers have in my opinion been far too common compared to how good they are. On the other hand, we also have some very rare items that aren't overly good, which isn't right either.

When it comes to EQ-hunting, perhaps you will have to adjust a little as well. Is it worth it to spend an entire day in Raumdor to get the sturdy greaves, or is it better to get five copies of a slightly worse pair? I think players will adjust, and soon we will be better off, since there will be more equipment that is considered "good".

Anyway, I do hear you as well. Obviously, if it becomes just too futile to even bother hunting some items, then we've gone too far. But we'll need to let the new numbers "settle" a bit first, before we can decide if we should upgrade the droprates again. And your feedback is also valuable. And the more information you can provide the better.

sylphan
Veteran
Posts: 233
Joined: 12 Nov 2017 19:56

Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by sylphan » 03 Jan 2021 19:08

Cherek,

Here is what I wrote on 29 December: "Does anyone else think we've gone a bit too far with the sturdy black armours?" (emphasis added). Earlier today, Snedecor wrote this: "There's a fine line between making something an awesome find and just torturing people with hopelessness. This is over that line" (emphasis added). This is why your reduction of our position to "Go back to the old way!" seems willful to me. I get that you have a lot on your plate, none of which you get paid for, and I really appreciate your responsiveness to us players. On the whole I think you're doing an awesome job. I point this out though because it seems to me, in saying "But they were too common before!" you've been combating a position no one here (I dont' think) is actually taking. Which confuses me.

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3211
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Cherek » 03 Jan 2021 19:12

Rache wrote:
03 Jan 2021 18:47
Cherek wrote:
03 Jan 2021 18:30
So... as always it's hard to know the exact sweetspot between too rare and too common.
I think this is all people are asking for. I don't think every time you kill the death knight you should get the bracers as a pity reward. "No skullplate? It's ok man, here's some bracers." But I think it's reasonable to find a pair of bracers and greaves if you were to clean the entire forest of Raumdor. But just not 5-6 pairs like before.

When the pendulum swings too far in either direction, it's typically detrimental. Is this something we could look at?
Absolutely, I hear you. Like we discussed on Discord before, it's hard to set a good number that makes it fun for the individual player, but does not flood the game with a specific item.

Let's say a specific mob has a 5% chance of having a good item (I am just making up a number here). 5% sounds like a really low chance, and it is. It means a player has to kill the same mob 20 times to get 1 copy of an item. That will likely feel pretty futile. If it's a "boss"-mob, with only one copy of the NPC, that means you can at most kill it about 24 times per day (room resets are a bit random, but let's assume one reset per hour as an average value). So, you'd get one copy of the item every day. Realistically, the mob won't be killed once per hour tho, but let's say it is killed once every two hours. That means one copy of the item every 2 days (rounding down). So, in a month about 15 copies will find their way to racks/inventories.

If we increase the droprate to 20%, it means it takes on average 5 kills to get the desirable item. That's more fun as a player. But... it means we'll add about 70-80 copies of en elite item to the game each month. Suddenly it's not so rare anymore... and suddenly you "can't live" without this item, since you are so used to always having it. I am not sure that's so good either, because it completely devalues all other items in the same category.

So, where IS the sweetspot? I don't know. We're trying to find it now. And like I said, we're open for tweaking it further, based on the numbers, but also your feedback. I am obviously not going to reveal droprates for specific items, but while we have access to numbers, you players have better knowledge than us of actually playing the game. I agree it can't be so rare that it becomes pointless to hunt for it. That's no fun. But if it's too common, we get the opposite problem, where everything else loses its value. Which I think is what happened for basically all other bracers that doesn't have "sturdy black" in their description. Turtle shells as well, if perhaps not as extreme.

Rache
Wanderer
Posts: 60
Joined: 05 Aug 2019 22:31
Location: Kaiserslautern

Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Rache » 03 Jan 2021 19:20

Cherek wrote:
03 Jan 2021 19:12
Rache wrote:
03 Jan 2021 18:47
Cherek wrote:
03 Jan 2021 18:30
So... as always it's hard to know the exact sweetspot between too rare and too common.
I think this is all people are asking for. I don't think every time you kill the death knight you should get the bracers as a pity reward. "No skullplate? It's ok man, here's some bracers." But I think it's reasonable to find a pair of bracers and greaves if you were to clean the entire forest of Raumdor. But just not 5-6 pairs like before.

When the pendulum swings too far in either direction, it's typically detrimental. Is this something we could look at?
Let's say a specific mob has a 5% chance of having a good item (I am just making up a number here). 5% sounds like a really low chance, and it is. It means a player has to kill the same mob 50 times to get 1 copy of an item.
Not to Gasman you, but 5% chance is one in 20, not one in 50. :)

Honestly, I just don't know why when changes are made, they're made to such extremes in this game though. "Gear should last longer." "GEAR LASTS FOREVER!" "Gear is too easy to get." "Gear never drops!"

What ever happened to fine-tuning on the fly until it's just right?

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3211
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Cherek » 03 Jan 2021 19:31

sylphan wrote:
03 Jan 2021 19:08
Cherek,

Here is what I wrote on 29 December: "Does anyone else think we've gone a bit too far with the sturdy black armours?" (emphasis added). Earlier today, Snedecor wrote this: "There's a fine line between making something an awesome find and just torturing people with hopelessness. This is over that line" (emphasis added). This is why your reduction of our position to "Go back to the old way!" seems willful to me. I get that you have a lot on your plate, none of which you get paid for, and I really appreciate your responsiveness to us players. On the whole I think you're doing an awesome job. I point this out though because it seems to me, in saying "But they were too common before!" you've been combating a position no one here (I dont' think) is actually taking. Which confuses me.
Uh. I was replying to Snedecor, I was not teferring to anything YOU wrote. So I am not sure why you bring one of your posts from December 29 here. What I said wasn't even directed at you in any way.

Also, your Snedecor quote above is something he wrote AFTER my reply that you are confused/upset with. Clearly he elaborated on his thoughts there, but when I posted my reply that post did not even exist. All I saw was post saying "this system sucks", and replied to THAT post alone. Seriously, you can't use something someone said AFTER my post as an argunent here. That simply makes no sense. If you look at when things were posted and who I directed my reply to, I am sure you will see that too?

And I already explained what I meant. I read it like Snededor with his "this sucks" comment, probably wanted it reverted back. Again, if that was not what he meant, then I assumed wrongly. My bad. Snedecor also elaborated on this later, which I also replied to and agreed with.

Can we please move forward now, otherwise I'll have to split this subject and make a special one for "Cherek and Sylphan is arguing about nothing" :)

User avatar
Cherek
Site Admin
Posts: 3211
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Cherek » 03 Jan 2021 19:32

Rache: Oh yeah, duh. I've edited that now, so my example is correct now.

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/