Changes to Equipment

A place to discuss all the ins and outs of equipment in the Genesis Donut. Warning: Spoilers may be included. Only validated game players will see this forum.
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sylphan
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Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by sylphan » 03 Jan 2021 19:41

Rache wrote:
03 Jan 2021 19:20
Honestly, I just don't know why when changes are made, they're made to such extremes in this game though. "Gear should last longer." "GEAR LASTS FOREVER!" "Gear is too easy to get." "Gear never drops!"
One thousand times yes.

P.S. And Cherek, sure. Let's drop it. Peace.

Thalric
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Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Thalric » 03 Jan 2021 20:35

As Cherek said, with several hundred sturdy bracers/greaves in the game already, you wont be seeing the droprate as it will look in 2-3 months when all of those are broken.

This is the issue with tweaks on something that deals with diminishing returns.
Does it suck now, yes.
Will it suck in 3 months, who knows.

Rache
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Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Rache » 03 Jan 2021 20:50

Thalric wrote:
03 Jan 2021 20:35
As Cherek said, with several hundred sturdy bracers/greaves in the game already, you wont be seeing the droprate as it will look in 2-3 months when all of those are broken.

This is the issue with tweaks on something that deals with diminishing returns.
Does it suck now, yes.
Will it suck in 3 months, who knows.
I don't think that was said, though. It was an example of how drop rates have lead to overly full racks, but not that it will eventually change. If he DID say that, then maybe we're on to something -- but I didn't see it that way.

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Cherek
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Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Cherek » 03 Jan 2021 21:30

Rache wrote:
03 Jan 2021 20:50
Thalric wrote:
03 Jan 2021 20:35
As Cherek said, with several hundred sturdy bracers/greaves in the game already, you wont be seeing the droprate as it will look in 2-3 months when all of those are broken.

This is the issue with tweaks on something that deals with diminishing returns.
Does it suck now, yes.
Will it suck in 3 months, who knows.
I don't think that was said, though. It was an example of how drop rates have lead to overly full racks, but not that it will eventually change. If he DID say that, then maybe we're on to something -- but I didn't see it that way.
The numbers are what is currently in the game right now. So, for the items that were changed relatively recently, it's still too early to tell how the new droprates will affect those numbers, but it's something we'll monitor of course. That's why I said we need to let the new droprates "settle", so in a few months, when all "old" copies will decay away, we will have a better idea on how the numbers actually look with the new droprates for items that were previously considered common.

I posted the numbers for turtle shells (and we have more sturdy greaves/bracers than that), to show you that right now they are still in abundance. Did we we overdo it with the nerf? Well, time will tell, since the ones aquired with the old droprates will have to decay away before we truly know.

I've looked at some numbers of the items we have discussed, and the numbers _look_ reasonable to me. But as you all know, the numbers doesn't always tell the full story, as there are in many cases several variables in play when it comes to how easy it is to get a particular piece of equipment. For example, the Drakmere forest is, as you know, somewhat harder than many places to EQ-hunt in, for various reasons. If it turns out there are only five sturdy bracers in the game in March, then we'll know we probably overdid it, but if there are still hundreds, then we probably didn't do enough...

Snedecor
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Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Snedecor » 03 Jan 2021 22:33

Hi Cherek,

I get the idea that you need to let the dust settle, and I also greatly appreciate your work and your willingness to have a meaningful conversation on these topics with the players, so thanks for this.

You were right to be confused about not having shells. I have those, I added that item in after writing that sentence originally about the other items.

I can only speak to my experience which was this: A few years back I could get a copy or two of the GBS or MBP over an arma with dedicated hunting and that seems impossible now-prior to the most recent nerf. I can't vouch for why but it seems much harder to get. So much so I don't do heavy EQ hunting anymore and just have settled for less. That was already true.

To my perspective, now I gotta scrounge just to keep up my base gear for days on end. It might get better later, but it just feels like a kick in the knees (I understand you don't mean to hurt me or the game). Now turtles (which are hard fo me to kill, but that's ok in some sense as I can kill lots of things fast) won't always produce and greaves and bracers are going to become not worth hunting.

There's no reason to hunt for something for days that only lasts a few days. That's my judgement call anyways.

Perhaps it's the abundance of guilds/players with teleport?

Regardless I agree with Sylphan here. This change did suck, however, I'm not anti-change as a whole. We can change things, hths simply feels like a car crash of a way to go.

Rache
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Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Rache » 04 Jan 2021 02:43

Cherek wrote:
03 Jan 2021 21:30
Did we we overdo it with the nerf? Well, time will tell, since the ones aquired with the old droprates will have to decay away before we truly know.

I've looked at some numbers of the items we have discussed, and the numbers _look_ reasonable to me.
I'm good with that. Thanks for being open and honest and taking the time to explain things. Cheers!

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Skythus
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Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Skythus » 04 Jan 2021 07:08

Cherek is my #1 former AoE turned Keeper

It will be interesting to see how many exist in 90 days. It would be cool to see a chart of the top tier items and how many exist that you could check in game

tor
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Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by tor » 05 Jan 2021 07:21

Just wanted to add my thoughts here since I have been quite vocal about the item rarity changes on the Discord.

After initially being somewhat frustrated, I've come to realize this is actually a fantastic change. As someone who gets much of their enjoyment from gear hunting, it is overall a very good thing for the top tier items to be quite rare.

In fact, I often find myself longing for the old days when you'd grab a crafted axe from Tyr, hack down a troll at great personal danger for a huge waraxe, and then with some luck grabbing a dscale, and hoping against hope that Shale would spawn with a cleaver. If you got a BSA a day or two into Arma, you were set. I actually *loved* the post-Armageddon loot rush of those days, although I fully recognize how that loot system is not friendly to today's modern text-based gamers.

I like the fact that it is now a thrilling find when the death knight appears with sturdy black bracers, or when Urian's mage appears with the robe. It rewards dedication and makes the hunter stand apart from those who haven't put in the work. We're going to start seeing more variants in how people equip themselves, so everyone isn't running around in identical gear all the time. Magical items are going to become less inflated and thus worth more on the auction house, giving you a reason to have plats and stimulating the marketplace for items in Genesis.

My suggestion to those who are frustrated by the change: seek other options! If you cant get the sturdy black bracers/greaves, go get the glowing holy greaves next door, or have a master blacksmith craft you some greaves or bracers. They're nearly as good. Speaking of Raumdor, the armours and weapons used by the standard Drakmere guards are *excellent*. Dragonscales, green steel, glowing holy, tempered armours are all plentiful and mostly easy to get if you were already going after the sturdy black stuff. Greaves from the terrible troll are pretty nice too, we used to use them all the time. There is another set of excellent bracers that can be obtained by legend and myth-sized individuals that are slightly more common and just require a bit of climbing and exploration. There's a far superior set of greaves in Krynn that almost anyone can get, due to the nature of the npc that wear them. Can't find a skullplate? Go for a black platemail, blackened spiked platemail, glowing holy platemail, dragonscale, ash-grey splint mail, golden platemail, battle chainmail, etc. Most of those tier two armours that are still plentiful are only just barely worse than the top tier items. Can't get an MBP? Theres the deep-blue fullplate, GMC, shining platemail, crystalline fullplate, runed dwarven fullplate, and if Gorboth keeps it up we'll have the deathmails in supply as well. No darkened robe? Hooded silvery robes and pelts do just fine. There's so many options for good gear that is just as good or nearly as good as what you're used to.

If you experience difficulty finding a dragon turtle shell - remember, it's not just the dragon turtles that can have them. There are three or maybe four sloops with captains who can have them from time to time. Or, grab the oval steel shield from the minotaur on the Flotsam-Sparkle ship. Or a tempered shield from the tomb dwellers in Terel. Or a maxed out smith shield. A shield from any of the elite units on the warplains. They're all quite close to as good as a turtle shell.

Also, let's not forget that many of these boss fights (Urian, Verminaard, Krothgar, Barash, Ashburz) come with a chance to find one of several different excellent items, so the effective chance to find something good is higher than the individual 2-5% chance per item. Clearing Urian's room can result in four different items which are all TOP tier. Trade with others!

My suggestion to Cotillion and Cherek (and anyone else who may be working on this): I think the changes are good, but close attention should be paid to some specific bosses and items. If the npc is particularly difficult and requires an investment of time (travel, killing guards), or is particularly difficult and requires size, equipment, and tactical preparation to defeat for most myths (Death Knight inside the Khiraa temple, Krothgar/Vosil, Barash'Gund, Ashburz, Yeti, etc), why not give them something rewarding to be looted even if the main item being sought is rarely found? A perfect example of this is how killing Urian yields quite a bit of money, making it well worth the kill even if he doesn't have anything good. Another example is how the orc captain always has a solid weapon even if he isn't wearing any of his great armours. I am sure we could brainstorm non-monetary rewards for killing tough bosses. I.E. short temporary buffs. I imagine the yeti is quite rarely killed, but if killing him "filled the team with confidence and determination" and gave a slight strength and haste boost for 30 minutes, it would likely be something that could breath new life into Icewall and get teams going there again.

I might also suggest that some of the exceedingly rare items should have their durability boosted. For example, the great black skull and umber hulk bracers are top tier, and they also happen to be able to take a ton of hits before they deteriorate and break.

And there are specific items that just seem insanely rare - they might warrant a second look, although I'm sure you're already on top of this. Frightening skull helmet, midnight black platemail, gleaming black skullplate all come to mind. My hunch is that 2-3% is too low, but 5%-10% (one in twenty or one in ten kills, depending on how good the item is) could be that sweet spot. I am sure many of these particular npcs are being killed along the lines of 20-30 times per day so one item found per day sounds about right to me.

A related note, some armour slots could likely use a new top-tier option, and I'm sure this is something that is kept in mind when new areas are being created. I feel that helmets, bracers, and greaves are all under-represented when thinking of top-tiers (or even second tiers for bracers/greaves) that fit those spots, while chest armours and cloaks are quite well-populated for both top-tier and second tier.

Whew, ok, if you read all that, your time is most appreciated. Back to the hunt!

Hektor
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Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Hektor » 05 Jan 2021 07:55

Very good note Tor. I cannot say I have even remotely any up to date experience or gear knowledge / gear hunting skill you do, but I agree with alot of your conclusions and suggestions.
Lawful evil - conform or die.

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Cherek
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Re: Changes to Equipment

Post by Cherek » 05 Jan 2021 18:49

Good post Tor, I agree with more or less everything in it, and you basically explained my feelings regarding the EQ-uniqueness changes in a better way than I had been able to previously :) The idea of making all big bosses always have _something_ (but not always the top tier stuff) is definitely also a good idea.

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