Fact-checking and critical thinking

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Cherek
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Cherek » 06 Jun 2022 02:54

Quantum: I understand the problem. And I don't have a solution other than to report what you suspect, or what you hear, to the AoP team, and let US look into the validity of it. But even if you can't confirm the claims and actually fact check it, I think what I originally wrote still applies. Perhaps even more so.

If you DON'T have the facts, and if the person telling you that the nazgul heals vampires doesn't have any proof, then keep an open mind. Don't automatically believe it. Don't spread it to someone else. It could be right? It could be completely wrong? In this example, it might not be the end of the world if you spread an incorrect rumour about vampires and the nazgul, but when the rumours are more personal, and potentially very hurtful towards another player or wizard, it becomes a problem. So, if you can, try to check the facts. If you can't check the facts, don't just believe rumours _without_ facts.

If someone says the nazgul heals undeads, ask them if they have seen it with their own eyes? Do they have a log? Ask a vampire if you know and trust one? Reach out to the AoP team, or the liege of the domain, and bring your concern to them? There are many better options than flat out beliving it and spreading it to others, especially if you DON'T know if it's true or not.

Regarding this particular rumour:

- No, the nazgul does not heal undeads.
- Yes, undeads do have another benefit when fighting the nazgul, but he is definitely not an easy boss for them either.
- One reason you see many vampires with FBB is of course also because there ARE many vampires, and many of them are also really big. The nazgul is still quite hard to kill for anyone, regardless of race.
- The benefit undead gets in that fight is completely unrelated to the Vampire guild, so don't blame Nerull. This is due to the undead race that was created a long time ago. It's nothing new, but the other undeads (mages) usually did not kill the nazgul so nobody cared then, or even knew of the potential problem. If it is a problem(?)
- There are other guilds who also have a considerable edge when fighting the nazgul, and they have been the key to "farming" him in the past as well. Don't forget that.
- Also remember that some races/guilds having an easier/harder time with different bosses is hardly anything new in Genesis. Some bosses are much easier to kill for casters than for melee players for example, and vice versa.
- We might decide to redo the nazgul encounter to be more of a challenge for all races/guilds, but we haven't decided how/if yet. Before Xmas(tm)

Quantum
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Quantum » 06 Jun 2022 08:44

Thank you for replying.

This fully explains some concerns that were raised recently.

I think this is the kind of information that should be put on a "news" board somewhere in the Tower of Realms. It is a rumour about game mechanics, not about a specific person, but more a larger group of persons and it could be of interest to many people.

There was a discussion of such a board previously in this thread. If it already exists and I have not yet found it, please provide directions :)

Kvator
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Kvator » 06 Jun 2022 20:43

Cherek wrote:
06 Jun 2022 02:54
- Yes, undeads do have another benefit when fighting the nazgul, but he is definitely not an easy boss for them either.
This thread is called 'fact-checking'?

Undeads basically have in-built counter to the only* thing that's problematic with Nazgul (for myth+ players - which is pretty standard level nowadays) and yet you make it sounds like they get just some insignificant bonus...

damn!


* except for some random, player-related encounters (like MM's or ur enemies finding out you're fighting him) ofc

Saimon
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Saimon » 06 Jun 2022 20:59

Did we see so many FBBs in players' hands when there were so many big/huge BDA members?

TaranGoatWalker
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by TaranGoatWalker » 06 Jun 2022 21:39

Saimon wrote:
06 Jun 2022 20:59
Did we see so many FBBs in players' hands when there were so many big/huge BDA members?
We did.
Stabby stabby stab stab.

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Dhez
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Dhez » 06 Jun 2022 22:57

Saimon wrote:
06 Jun 2022 20:59
Did we see so many FBBs in players' hands when there were so many big/huge BDA members?
Yes, and we also saw them in the hands of goodies during the EC vs RDA war. Even I had one at one point as a ranger because of how easy the rider was with a RoN stunlocking it. Definitely not a specific vamp issue. People get gear because they figure the fight out, work hard for it, collaborate, etc.
You see a mousetrap. I see free cheese and a challenge.
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Targun
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Targun » 07 Jun 2022 15:56

It's a rant time... 'cos I'm feeling a little rantish... having read Lilith's, Cherek's and Greneth's notes.

Here we go... Genesis' hierarchy and its culture operate on a social construct that is extremely unhealthy and will be causing frustration and dramas for many individuals, oftentimes completely unproportionate to the situation at hand. Reading Greneth's post was probably the biggest WTF moment I experienced in this game and is just cherry topping the cake of a broader situation on Genesis:

WIZARDS - seem to be harassed and have to deal to no end with players who behave like kids in the kindergarten (at least portion of them) and with constant accusations of favoritism or outright cheating, while working for free and oftentimes sacrificing a lot of their RL time and money and having genuinely best intentions.

PLAYERS - (at least portion of them) are distrustful towards wizards (perhaps only some), see a lot of potential for power abuse and question the integrity of the balance system (creative accounting when it comes to CAID, replacing game mechanics that apply to everyone with pseudo-equivalents - vamp related thingsies).

Now, what I'm going to write is not aimed at anyone... please treat it for a moment - with me - as a thought experiment, because I think with current approach the above description of the situation will continue forever and then for a tiny whiny little bit longer.

Lets forget we're talking specifically about Gen, and look at the characteristics of our little social system:

- it is a small, isolated community
- it has no external pressure to perform or to be meritocratic (it doesn't earn money, and is not rewarded in any way, shape or form for being objectively good or fair)
- the only forms of gratification are (for both wizards and players): sense of achievement and status in the community (acknowledgement, respect, admiration, approval, gratitude, sense of belonging, acceptance)
- its governing body is not a subject to audit, is not term-based and not elective
- it lacks transparency, verification, peer review (a.k.a. "trust me dude")
- the very nature of social dynamics (wizard-players, social ties, friendships, kinships) is a definition of conflict of interest

Such system ticks enough boxes to cause griefing and frustration for everyone who is sufficiently emotionally or economically involved. In case of the game these will be: time, nostalgia, friendships, past and current creations.

What people do with those feelings depends on their maturity, level of emotional investment and their current mental fortitude.

However, feelings of just or unjust (subjective and often completely untrue) are some of the strongest humans experiences. When people feel they are being treated unfairly and unjustly and cannot seek justice or what would be considered a fair trial - they go nuts or rogue or both (or vigilante so or threeogh).

Think back to the experiences (perhaps at school), when you know you were being treated unfairly and you could do absolutely nothing about it... or take look at the parents involved in fists fights because of their 5yo kid football (not hand-egg) game. Were those emotions or reactions in any way proportionate in the "grand scheme of things"? Probably not, yet you may still feel a fiery hatred towards that one teacher who was abusing their power over you - a kid.

Equally, think of times when you were unjustly accused of something you did not do and worse - punished for it.

On Genesis we have a very similar dynamic. We have the powerless who have no way of verifying and impacting the situation and the powerful. Even if you do everything right and to the letter, even if you somehow manage to create utopian land of justfullness and equalititness, you will end up in a toxic socio-dynamic. At the same time wizards become powerless in defending themselves from the accusations. It serves no one.

Players will be distrustful, because... it's human nature. It is healthy and correct to question, be skeptical and to want to verify.

The distrust and skepticism will be greater in our case, since there were occurrences of intentional abuse of power in the past. There were plenty of unintentional effects or bugs that (sometimes hugely) benefited some groups. There were a lot of lapses of judgement when someone wanted to do good (that's typically the case), but (unintentionally) was biased to the point that they failed to act sufficiently impartial.

There will be toxicity. It's embedded and direct derivative of a chosen system. It's a price that - at this point - is chosen with full knowledge of the consequences. No amount of words or pleas for reason will change that. Take a different group of people, recreate this system and you will see same issues.

Do I think any of this warrants those sorts of behaviors, accusations and manner in which they are postulated? No, I think such people should really take a step back and take Gen for what it is - a game that should serve relaxing and build positive connotations in your mind. Regardless of whatever power abuses (real or not) have taken or might take place in the future.

Do I think these accusations will continue and current system will cause a lot of unnecessary frustration to all involved? Absolutely.

Finally, it will do to remember, perhaps as a consolation - that griefing is done (probably) by a small portion of the players community. Equally, one dishonest, or perhaps overeager wizard who wants to make someone a bit happier, can easily ruin foundations for trust for a long time.

It is how the things are. If at least portion of Genesis does not become more transparent and subject to verification, griefing and toxicity will continue. Also, perhaps it is fit to say goodbye to people who take it too far with displaying their displease and cannot act maturely enough?

Targun, looking for a broom, a mine and a Thief of Time.

Makfly
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Makfly » 07 Jun 2022 21:55

You may call it a rant, but I think it's worded fairly reasonably and contains a good amount of truth, especially concerning transparency.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Drazson
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Drazson » 07 Jun 2022 22:13

It's not a rant, Targun.

Nerull
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Nerull » 07 Jun 2022 22:14

Quantum wrote:
05 Jun 2022 21:07

...Bottom line, people don't know much about them. LOTS of rumours about them. Maybe you should open up about the guild and give us some facts about the guild so we can all have an open and honest discussion about them?...
I've been quite transparent with this guild in public. Tons of internal game mechanics and gameloops related to the guild has been pushed straight to the public. That usually never happens.

Granted, guild secrets are guild secrets - most niche guilds or non-free-to-join guild have these, and is considered to be pretty normal.

The current vampire population is quite unaware of what is expecting them since noone is even close to halfway in progressing through the guild. It will take years.

When it comes to vampire power, it's not remarkably more powerful than any other occ + lay combination, but it definitely contains way more gameloops and unlockables, which makes it quite special. But again, it's not a Pownmobile, just different.

Hope it helps.

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