Fact-checking and critical thinking

Here, look for all manner of scoops, commentary, and general nonsense from the Keeper himself.
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Celemir
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Celemir » 02 Jul 2020 22:52

Nerull wrote:
02 Jul 2020 21:44
Kvator wrote:
02 Jul 2020 21:20
Nerull wrote:
02 Jul 2020 21:00
A wizard don't necessarily need to min-max anything to achieve good results - it's more about design, playability, luck and player interest since the difference between a "min-maxed" guild vs one that is not, is often small or insignificant. Size, and gear loadout probably matters much more.
Luckily I have alts in different guilds so don't have to take it for granted :)

Yes - size is super important for tanking. More specifically -> constitution attribute (the one to which kenders have -20% penalty xD)

Currently damage is king in Genesis though (that's why I don't know about any power-players in tank oriented guild) and as for dmg goes there are guilds where heroes/titans can outdamage kenders (armed with quickwood hoopak!) easily.
Min-maxed in this context means using what's allowed in caid + skill / tax allocations, right? or is it more about just dps? For this to make sense, it's important to establish this definition first. :)
DPS is quite a big part of this game, but I do think you hit the nail with design and playability. If the design don't translate well the play-ability will not be great. The design focus should be on the archetype.
Sometimes the intend is good, but why make a rouge guild focus on defense when the rest works against it.
Is the kenders supposed to be a tanking guild or is this just player perception?
Kenders have something unique to bring to the party but they get forced into.. well tanking for a lack of better word,
Other then this the kenders are a great tematic guild that most can enjoy, bare a few pet peeves of mine.

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Cherek
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Cherek » 02 Jul 2020 22:54

Fixing the racial imbalance is number one on my list of priorities. I had planned to have it fixed by now to be honest, but I've been swamped with RL work all year until a week ago. That's for another thread, though, but I can tell you right away that it will definitely be a boost for your dear kenders Kvator.

However, can we please leave the topic of kender / rogue guilds balance for a while? We can discuss it further in another thread if you want, but the point of this thread was not to dicuss guild balance, but rather to talk about how rumours start, how they spread, and what we can do about the false rumours that tend to circulate in our community.

Thalric
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Thalric » 03 Jul 2020 16:25

To solve rumour milling issue you probably need to be more forthcoming with issues that have a lot of player attention.
Recently we had a person who first did this, then that, then another thing...
All of them quite unique and the player being quite unique also.

But nobody _knows_ anything.
So of course rumours get out of hand.

Tell players what happens and we stop talking about it.
Because then we _know_!

In terms of guilds... I have no solution that would work without revealing guild secrets/special abilities

Mirandus
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Mirandus » 03 Jul 2020 16:37

I think if folks have questions rather than coming up with rumours about what it _could_ be, why not ask to speak to Keeper or AoP or whoever and ask your questions.

There can often be good reasons for not posting everything for all of Genesis to read. If there is a group with questions, have one person ask them and then share the answers with your group.

The thing is, a lot of folks prefer to speculate and assume rather than try to find out what happened.

Drazson
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Drazson » 03 Jul 2020 20:28

There are things that you are not sure about but are fishy, and rumours are born.

For example, if there was a person not having logged out for 2 years (I guess I didn't think this through, but a couple of weeks work maybe :D) one can at some point consider they might not be logging out cause they are keeping some exploit/bug running, for example a buff that would expire or an equip-unequip malfunction or stacking cordials (I guess that doesn't work but it's an excellent example).

You can't nag Wizards with that without proof, you would most probably be wasting their time, time which could be allocated in coding for everyone or a good night's sleep. You eventually do share your thoughts with others and tada, rumours spreading.

Mirandus
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Mirandus » 04 Jul 2020 02:51

Drazson wrote:
03 Jul 2020 20:28
There are things that you are not sure about but are fishy, and rumours are born.

For example, if there was a person not having logged out for 2 years (I guess I didn't think this through, but a couple of weeks work maybe :D) one can at some point consider they might not be logging out cause they are keeping some exploit/bug running, for example a buff that would expire or an equip-unequip malfunction or stacking cordials (I guess that doesn't work but it's an excellent example).

You can't nag Wizards with that without proof, you would most probably be wasting their time, time which could be allocated in coding for everyone or a good night's sleep. You eventually do share your thoughts with others and tada, rumours spreading.
If the person is breaking a rule (exploiting something unintended like a bug, or "exploit" as you say) you absolutely can and should contact AoP. If someone is staying logged in and not breaking any rules, I guess you could ask them why they are, or keep guessing and making up reasons.

Drazson
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Drazson » 04 Jul 2020 11:09

I think it's fairly obvious that you don't go around asking people why they do X meta thing which you find fishy. In particular cases you just get killed but it is a weird thing to do anyway.

I somehow feel that I gave you the answer for what you asked but you did not want it in the first place. Anyway.

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Mersereau
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Mersereau » 05 Jul 2020 14:26

As someone who's been in two guilds over the years where some NPCs had been specifically coded to avoid our combat tactics, I can say there have been biases baked into the game. This leads to a huge lack of trust from the playerbase. Everyone knows there have been wizards/admin over the years who've had there own personal agenda and done harm to the game.

Eventually you have to decide, do you want to be transparent and, "open up the books" or allow rumors to spread?

Being a wizard/admin and just telling your playerbase, "That ain't true," isn't gonna cut it.

If you want people to fact check, you are gonna have to allow people to see all the facts.
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
-Mel Brooks

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Cherek
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Cherek » 05 Jul 2020 15:14

Mersereau wrote:
05 Jul 2020 14:26
As someone who's been in two guilds over the years where some NPCs had been specifically coded to avoid our combat tactics, I can say there have been biases baked into the game. This leads to a huge lack of trust from the playerbase. Everyone knows there have been wizards/admin over the years who've had there own personal agenda and done harm to the game.

Eventually you have to decide, do you want to be transparent and, "open up the books" or allow rumors to spread?

Being a wizard/admin and just telling your playerbase, "That ain't true," isn't gonna cut it.

If you want people to fact check, you are gonna have to allow people to see all the facts.
I am not denying that there has historically been some shady wizards, and we can of course never guarantee something shady won't happen again at some point. However, I don't think the current admin should be judged by something someone else did 20 years ago either, so I would also urge players to try to judge us based on what WE do, not based on what other people did in the past.

I try to be open and always answer any questions people have honestly, and I hope people who talk to me feel that too. However, often rumours reach us too late, when they already have been "set" in people's mind, and then it's very hard to try to break that. But we can of course try to be more open and more proactive in cases where we think there is a risk of rumours spreading. Like in the recent case with Cassius death and the BDA leadership mess, that Mirandus posted about on the board.

Unfortunately, sometimes the only way to prove something is to show the source code, and should we really do that? Other times it's basically word against word. You think I treated player X differently because I'm biased towards that guild or player, but I know for sure I didn't, however, there's no way to prove that. I think in cases like this it's important for you (the players) to also consider what's logic and most reasonable in a situation instead of immediately jumping to the worst explanation. Do you have a reason to believe I am biased, other than this situation? Do I have a history of being biased? Or a history of cheating? If you think my decision favored a specific side now, can you also think of sitution where a decision I made favored _your_ side as well? What do I have to gain/risk from favoritism/helping someone cheat?

I promise to try to be even more open, if you also promise to ask yourselves these questions, and don't immediately believe we are biased/cheating, etc, even if that is your immediate thought.

And really, just come ask me a direct question if you believe something shady is going on, and I'll do my best to prove you wrong. I am not always be able to, but I'll try!

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Mersereau
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Re: Fact-checking and critical thinking

Post by Mersereau » 05 Jul 2020 15:57

Cherek wrote:
05 Jul 2020 15:14
Unfortunately, sometimes the only way to prove something is to show the source code, and should we really do that?
If you want people to fact check, you're going to have to. Otherwise, you're just asking people to take your word for it.

Pleading for people to believe you unconditionally is just as much rhetoric as rumor-mongering.
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
-Mel Brooks

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