WoHS

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Makfly
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Re: WoHS

Post by Makfly » 15 Feb 2011 18:34

Kas wrote:An occ merc casterguild...who would keep it in line and prevent loose cannons from compromising it?
Ehm, the Arch of Balance having done it's job by balancing it?

Having magic guilds be naturally overpowered, only to be kept in check by players good-will, fear for nerfs or other motivations isn't the only way things can be.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Amberlee
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Re: WoHS

Post by Amberlee » 15 Feb 2011 19:10

The thing is Makfly..
An OCC caster guild will always be more powerful then a fighter guild in short dutation fights.

"With great power comes great responsibility" someone once said :ugeek:
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If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Cherek
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Re: WoHS

Post by Cherek » 15 Feb 2011 19:20

I am with Makfly. Of course all caster guilds should be balanced just as other guilds is what I think.

I dont believe in this "player responsibility" either. Its gonna backfire and some point and has done in the past and will do in the future.

I dont see why fighters and casters could not be balanced here. They can in about all other games.

Sure some guilds or combination of guilds will be better at pvp in certain combinations. But everything should have a counter, spellcasters included.

Oh btw I never got this mage vs cleric deal, does it matter where your spells/gifts come from that much? If we have one guild that can cast lightning beams using "gifts" and one that can cast lightning beams using "spells". Its still lightning beams... so the use of having another guild that does the same thing with other descriptions seems unnecessesary to me.

Yes I get the RP-part, but there are millions of things people could like to RP but cant here. There is no guild for witches, werewolves, zombies, scubadivers, wrestlers, pole-dancers, stonemasons, nor is there a guild for... well you get the point.:)

Greneth

Re: WoHS

Post by Greneth » 15 Feb 2011 19:32

Cherek wrote:
Oh btw I never got this mage vs cleric deal, does it matter where your spells/gifts come from that much? If we have one guild that can cast lightning beams using "gifts" and one that can cast lightning beams using "spells". Its still lightning beams... so the use of having another guild that does the same thing with other descriptions seems unnecessesary to me.

Yes I get the RP-part, but there are millions of things people could like to RP but cant here. There is no guild for witches, werewolves, zombies, scubadivers, wrestlers, pole-dancers, stonemasons, nor is there a guild for... well you get the point.:)
All I have to say is... Really?

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Cherek
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Re: WoHS

Post by Cherek » 15 Feb 2011 19:34

Greneth: Care to elaborate? I do not understand your question, if it is a question?

Amberlee
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Re: WoHS

Post by Amberlee » 15 Feb 2011 19:44

Well ask yourself this Cherek.
Who would want to be a part of a caster guild that had the same damage output of say.. mercs..
They would basically be throwing spells to tickle people to death.
Or say the damage output of SU... Since Magic Resistance is actually a factor they would still be tickling monsters to death.
Limited defensive skills and a guild NEEDS to have a high DPS to be able to compensate.

And then you have the mana draining factor..

No Cherek... Fighter and Magic guilds can never be properly balanced...
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Rhaegar
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Re: WoHS

Post by Rhaegar » 15 Feb 2011 19:48

@ Cherek:

It's a matter of personal preference. The thing here would be a bit like science (mages) vs religion (priests) and personal gain (mages) vs working for someone else (priests). It works differently in different systems though, in Krynn for example gods are believed to have left the world (with just Takhisis returning) and their believers, hence the lack of good-aligned priests while mages remained vastly unhindered (they only rely on the moons when it comes to celestial beings, with full moon enhancing their power and new moon making it a bit weaker, but it's still there regardless).
Another difference, with classic approach, is that mages use their own power for the spells and need to meditate, sleep or rest by other means to replenish it while priests are granted the power from their gods and need to pray to regain it.

The mechanics remain almost the same but the background for it is vastly different.

@ Amberlee:

It usually is that caster guilds (and caster characters in RPGs in general) tend to be more powerful than their more direct counterparts but look at what cost it is achieved:
1. You must spend a lot of time obtaining your power, it's not like you join a caster guild and go blasting right away.
2. You need a TON of guildstat to make it work consistently and to good effect.
3. You can't go on about it indifinitely (burst damage vs sustained damage), while the fighter can always grab a new sword when his breaks and just continue on, the mage still has to recover the mana and spell ingredients before he can.

In the end, it leaves only a few, very dedicated people who've spent a lot of time and effort within the guild to be any real threat to the fighters who can grow faster and obtain better gear due to less limitations.
I don't see why those few people who have shown enough dedication should not have at least a tiny edge over people who can switch guilds at a whim and still retain most of their capability right off the bat.
I fear no evil for I am fear incarnate.

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Cherek
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Re: WoHS

Post by Cherek » 15 Feb 2011 19:54

Amberlee: I dont play other MMORPGs so I dont know how it works there, but I are you telling me in ALL fantasy MMORPG games, casters are much more powerful than fighters and have to play with "responsibility"?

I find this very hard to believe. Is that really the case?

In this game... sure, give casters good damage per second with their spells if you want. If it is an offensive type of caster we are talking about. But that does not mean it cannot be balanced?

I throw 4 fireballs at you that deal 500 damage each. = 2000 damage

I the same time you hit me 10 times with your 200 damage sword. = 2000 damage

An extremely basic example of course. Then we could also take into account various ways of countering spells, etc.

And we also have another way of balancing. Say a calian for instance. Alone any guild will take them down, but a calian and a tank on the other hand will be very deadly. A spellcaster guild could work in a similar way, alone, the fighter wins, but when behind a tank their power is much greater and they will be very deadly.

No, I dont see why you could not balance a spellcaster guild with other guilds.

Rhaegar: Yes I get the background is different, and I would not mind doing it the "mage" way for variety in the game. But just like I said a warewolf guild would be cool too, or a druid guild with animals fighting for you, or.... Well I dont see why this mage thing is special. Maybe it isnt? It just fees like you all think its something that is GREATLY missing in the game and I dont understand why its so special..:)

Makfly
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Re: WoHS

Post by Makfly » 15 Feb 2011 20:06

amberlee wrote:Fighter and Magic guilds can never be properly balanced...
That's just nonsense.

Ofcourse figther and magic guilds can be balanced. They have been balanced in pen & paper RPGs and in computer games alike for ages.
There is absolutely no reason why things cannot be balanced against each other.
Now if it is a deliberate design decision, like it has been for Genesis in the past, then fine. But then we can argue whether that decision was right or wrong, not whether it can be done at all.

I do agree that the absence of the classic Wizard-in-a-robe option missing from Genesis is strange, and it'd be great if it was implemented. But it seems the wizards have enough on their plate with recoding/balancing the current magic guilds. Though once it's done, and any ressources might be free up, the Wizard of High Sorcery would be a very obvious choice.
Also the pole-dancing guild have already been covered in Avenir I think, or close enough atleast. :)
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Amberlee
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Re: WoHS

Post by Amberlee » 15 Feb 2011 20:51

Actually pen & paper RPGs never really managed to balance the classes properly either :p
Evidence #1.. Druids and wizards in D&D 3rd edition, and with that said.. druids being unkillable..
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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