Morgul Mage Discussion - power, grinding, balance

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Makfly
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Re: Hektor 3 shots a Necro Titan for being a Necromancer

Post by Makfly » 20 Apr 2011 00:08

sharn wrote:I am certain, that everyone would have the same level of respect towards the Society if they were properly balanced towards other guilds in the game.
I think that would ruin their roleplay utterly, if their roleplay of invincible mages would not be supported in proper power behind it.
Beregond comes to my mind as an example. He roleplayed powerful and fearless warrior of the West.
But without the power, he might as well roleplay a peace of a dead meat, which he did.

Please note - I am all for balance, for all guilds, MM included.
But as soon as MM is balanced towards other guilds, their reputaion of untouchable mages is gone.
I do not agree with this prediction.

I think that any guild, the Society in this case, can earn a generous amount of respect from others in the game, not by being overpowered code-wise, but by acting in unison, by knowing all kinds of tricks both in how to use their own abilities but also in how to exploit other guilds weaknesses and how to use equipment to their advantage, etc...

If the OCC guilds are all balanced against each other, then sure, players of some guilds have to actively do more to become respected/feared, but it's certainly not like nobody is going to fear a guild that knows how to play together.
The Society has alot of advantages to retaining the respected status of their guild, even if case all guilds are finally balanced, mainly based on how the guild works/is setup.

A bit fragmented a post, but I hope it makes sense.


Also, Johnny anyone in Genesis can be "handled", if you know how to. But in general, the long history of Genesis is pretty clear in this case.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

Celephias
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Re: Hektor 3 shots a Necro Titan for being a Necromancer

Post by Celephias » 20 Apr 2011 03:09

A, for the most part, excellent discussion. Its interesting to see people's interest and thoughts on the guild.

Amberlee hit the nail on the head pretty well. A melee guild will out-grind the Society by a mile. But yes, if we're prepared and have done our homework, we can take down pretty big NPCs. This is generally because our power is burst oriented, not sustainable.

Johnny is also quite right. Killing a mage is very doable if you you're smart, do your homework, and know how. After all, how would there ever be logs of dead mages if it wasn't possible?!

This thread does have a lot of FUD (Fear, uncertainty, and doubt) as well as some misinformation though. That people fear is a good thing from my perspective of course ;-) Something you should remember is that higher level mages war game PvP fights. How to prepare and tactics. Also, with some subtle nerfs (that you wouldn't think are nerfs at all) our PvP abilities have been lessened from the days when I was King.

Sharn made a great point. Its hard to RP a badass when you're wimpying from the room or your menacing spell does squat. I usually RP all conflicts, but there are some players who would rather not RP or believe they want to kick at the wasp nest. For them, I make sure that I'm ready to give them a little something to think about. Then, of course, they will complain ;-)

BTW, I have attacked only one player since I got back into the game. It was a planned hit in revenge for an attack he/she had made. Otherwise, I have encountered many who could be enemies and some who were engaging in activites that should get them 'disciplined'. The majority of situations can be handled via RP unless I'm dealing with a buffoon.

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Cherek
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Re: Hektor 3 shots a Necro Titan for being a Necromancer

Post by Cherek » 20 Apr 2011 05:05

Celephias wrote: BTW, I have attacked only one player since I got back into the game. It was a planned hit in revenge for an attack he/she had made. Otherwise, I have encountered many who could be enemies and some who were engaging in activites that should get them 'disciplined'. The majority of situations can be handled via RP unless I'm dealing with a buffoon.
The point I am trying to make is that if you wanted to kill anyone that looked at you the wrong way you _should not_ be able to thanks to the balance of the game.

The question is, can you?

In the past it has basically been true that if you anger a mage and they want you dead, they will see you dead. That is a "feature" no other guild really have. I think all guilds should have more or less equal chance of killing another player. I dont think mages should have more abilities to back up their RP than any other guild.

Cherek was a knight during a bunch of wars, back when knight block was really scary, and most people trapped in a single exit room by a pair of knights would most likely end up dead. That was unfair. And was changed. For a time DAs could stack dragons to permanently keep almost anyone from moving, which ended in a bunch of bloodsheds until that feature was removed. Other guilds have had similar specials that also were removed.

However MMs have always had the abilities to kill more or less anyone. It always struck me as odd how all other guilds get these abilities restricted and removed, but mages still seem to be able to sneak up and murder those they consider "buffoons".

Now I dont think you are murdering people left and right, the point is I dont think you as players should even have the power to decide. The game should decide this, by being balanced. So that no guild has PVP abilities that surpasses other guild's abilities to PVP.

And no that does not mean everyone should have the same abilities, but I think every guild should have their own type of PVP helpful ability, with strengths and weaknesses.

Celephias
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Re: Hektor 3 shots a Necro Titan for being a Necromancer

Post by Celephias » 20 Apr 2011 05:21

There's nothing in my note to suggest someone dies because I want them dead.

You certainly have opinions on balance, but seemingly little in terms of facts.

Is it balanced that a knight (for example) can grow much, much faster than a mage with the same amount of game time invested?

Is it balanced that someone can cleanse my poison or heal my damage or get items that confer resistance?

Is it balanced that my 'special attacks' are finite and limited by mana and components and therefore are not usable with anywhere near the frequency of a fighter's specials?

Is it balanced that some of our better techniques for killing have been nerfed?

Is it balanced that someone can run away from me instead of standing there and taking the beating I want to give them?

Maybe things are more balanced overall than you think.

Or, maybe we kill people better because we take it seriously and work at it as opposed to just getting the best gear we can and mindlessly smacking at someone.

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Cherek
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Re: Hektor 3 shots a Necro Titan for being a Necromancer

Post by Cherek » 20 Apr 2011 06:33

Celephias:
As I said I am just sharing how I see mages, and how powerful you _seem_ to be. I never said these are facts, just how I have viewed mages during all these years, and how I view you now, based on what I have seen myself and stories others tell.

And I did ask for your side of it too, and you shared how you see it. Thats good.

Laurel

Re: Hektor 3 shots a Necro Titan for being a Necromancer

Post by Laurel » 20 Apr 2011 09:37

this started somewhere around a SCOP whine and ended up in a MM "discussion" :?

anyway - shall we take down MM features one by one, as we did with most other features of other guilds in this forums? I guess not, as it would take away 50% of the MM-PR
shall we then proceed to looking for counters for those features? that would take away the last bits of the MM-PR

let's just stick to what MM players stated here then, shall we?

MM grind slower than malee occ guilds I know it wasn't stated by Cel, but agreed to

certainly not slower than a solo kender or a solo Ranger, but those are sneaker-guilds (not purely malee, hence the still not recoded status of them both) ... especially when it's a MM+AA
I'd wonder if a solo Calian or a solo Neidar can grind faster than a solo MM with similar guild-stat - I very much doubt that, considering the size difference matters much more than the number of kills for the exp-grind (this you seem to be forgetting)
example: I know people ran tests with such opponents as yeti and bounced it for exp - 15-20min bouncing solo = slight+ progress on a reasonable mortal-level without death-recovery ... beat that with any other grind grounds? and how long does it take a MM to solo the yeti + recover the mana lost in the process? guess that's one of the reasons yeti has been changed over time

years ago (it might have changed since than, of course) Etanukar (surely not wraith by that time) was able to clean Doll + 4 s-elves quicker than Laurel BDA/bm (the winner of the Arena back then) killed 1 s-elf ... :lol:

in PvP MM's have been nerfed

I'd guess that's why Etanukar decided to cast the oliphaunt-curse on Xar and block his exit on a huge NPC (outside of our long-year war-area)?
nevermind that one tho - you wrote yourself about cleansing and healing and countering your magic ... let's see:

cleansing:
2 occ guilds + 1 lay guild are able to do that; I have yet to witness a Herald cleansing away a BB tho ... maybe Earth? anyway - that's all 3 goodie guilds with people in them who don't like to help just about anyone who happened to be MM target (and that's perfectly fine in regards to those guilds' RP)
in old tales the Minstrels had also a chance to cleanse poisons with their healing songs ... but I've never seen this happen, so I consider that a fairy-tale
but what if MM decide to go after a baddie - who can cleanse them?

healing:
same as above with the addition of Minstrels, PoTs and EW (yes, they do have a healing spell after all ... nevermind it's usage possibilities ...)
it requires only 2 strategic spells of 1 MM to make it virtually impossible to outheal their effect by one Ranger
don't know about SCOP, but I'd guess Minstrels, PoT and EW are even worse there ... so what's left? skunk berries or 1 healing herb per minute munching?

magic-resistance items:
this is called armour in malee fights ... for some reason malee-guilds are not able to train all those magic spell skills up to the same level as defence/parry/etc.
but let's not go that way - let's tackle it from another angle: to be prepared the victim has to know it is being a target, stalked, scried, etc. ... how does s/he know it when MMs can do it on invis and only 1-2(?) guilds can "spot" them doing it (at least one can do that, but only if the spot action is performed actively - dunno about SCOP features)
all it takes is cast 1 spell when on invis (Laurel has received "gifts" from MM's in the same second they came out of invis numerous times) and the second spell within a few seconds before the victim runs ... you don't have to follow her/him ... not with your spells
it's even better if you know where the victim will have to run and place one of your funny location spells there ...
I didn't even mention the small fact that you gals (pun intended) can stack your most powerful spells on one target ... :roll: it's not like block stacks one exit anymore ...
so - if someone doesn't know MMs are after her/him then s/he surely will NOT work for hours to stack MM counter features (including weapons that help with killing your rotting bodies) ... just to log out because her/his time for Gen has run out

I don't support the MM whine by the way - Laurel has some features to counter them, always has at least basic preparations for such an encounter and has been target to MM spells over and over again (sometimes it was pretty fucking close, but it's not like I fear Laurel's death) ... I just wished Laurel had more chances to slay MMs as well ... not just endure another friendly combo of double-BB + strategic stat-cloud

the above is just to have some things straight - I don't intend to go into specific guild abilities, spells, counters, etc. here

enjoy the MM "discussion" :ugeek:

Chanele
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Re: Hektor 3 shots a Necro Titan for being a Necromancer

Post by Chanele » 20 Apr 2011 11:01

Seriously would you guys complain if you had very powerful abilities? Wouldnt you try to defend them by trying to convince other they are weak?

I think most people would stay quiet and trying to undermine their power. Just read Celephias note again.:)

Mages will have their recode, let them enjoy while it last:)

Laurel

Re: Hektor 3 shots a Necro Titan for being a Necromancer

Post by Laurel » 20 Apr 2011 11:26

Chanele wrote:Seriously would you guys complain if you had very powerful abilities? Wouldnt you try to defend them by trying to convince other they are weak?
if I write "Amen" now, will that suggest that Rangers are currently quite goddamn OP? :? :lol:

btw. where's all the logs of dead MMs? one was Locklear noobing during an attack on Mau and one was some other (I still blame Argor for that noobishness) smallfry mage being killed by a kaheda/knight combo within seconds :lol:
or are there any logs that can be posted here from the (in)famous vampire vs MM wars? :twisted:

Uther
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Re: Hektor 3 shots a Necro Titan for being a Necromancer

Post by Uther » 20 Apr 2011 12:48

Celephias wrote:A, for the most part, excellent discussion. Its interesting to see people's interest and thoughts on the guild.

Amberlee hit the nail on the head pretty well. A melee guild will out-grind the Society by a mile. But yes, if we're prepared and have done our homework, we can take down pretty big NPCs. This is generally because our power is burst oriented, not sustainable.
That is why a MM, not myth I think, yesterday cleaned 9 rooms of trolls on Mithas while me and Seren just managed to clean 4 in the same time.
If my maths are not bad that is more then twice as fast.

4 > 9 ... *think* :shock: :shock:
All comments are made by the player behind Uther, NOT THE CHARACTER UTHER!

Draugor

Re: Hektor 3 shots a Necro Titan for being a Necromancer

Post by Draugor » 20 Apr 2011 12:58

Uther wrote:
Celephias wrote:A, for the most part, excellent discussion. Its interesting to see people's interest and thoughts on the guild.

Amberlee hit the nail on the head pretty well. A melee guild will out-grind the Society by a mile. But yes, if we're prepared and have done our homework, we can take down pretty big NPCs. This is generally because our power is burst oriented, not sustainable.
That is why a MM, not myth I think, yesterday cleaned 9 rooms of trolls on Mithas while me and Seren just managed to clean 4 in the same time.
If my maths are not bad that is more then twice as fast.

4 > 9 ... *think* :shock: :shock:

Consider the cost in Mats aswell, mana, herbs and leftovers, they waste HUGE amounts for that kind of xp.

To bad he didnt clean Seren out

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