Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

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Arcon

Re: Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

Post by Arcon » 05 Jan 2013 20:07

Kas wrote:Regarding Rp, I see people are quick to condemn others by using pure _metagaming factors_ such as alignment in an argument to bash roleplay. This sounds fallacious me due to many factors.

A knight aiding a Da is considered "bad rp" because them being natural enemies, but is it always so? Or...a ranger aiding two mages to assassinate the ranger leader? Or some married knight seducing some elven chick, starting on a trail to death and
ruin? What about some Scop groveling before the Nine in the throneroom in Minas Morgul?

The use of alignment as an argument for "bad roleplay" I think is a very very poor one. In order to see if a character really plays his role "bad", you must look much deeper, scrutinize the events leading to the "abnormal" behaviour of said character, which in some very good cases are very long and intricate and often telling a story, for example, about someone's fall from "grace", or a turningpoint in their lives with or without obvious consequences. Anyone may be corrupted and work for the enemy, without compromising any aspects of character play, and I would dare to say, it may even ADD to the RP.

My experience with such events urges me to toss the "alignment"-thing right in the trashbin, and rather lean towards guilds setting their own positive/negative standings vs others as they please.
Wow, you just compared Irk grinding with Laurel and the ambush of Iliana. I don't even know what to say.

Great if you think this is all ok. Good for you. For me it destroys the game. Anyway I will step down from my high horse now. Please enjoy your "rp"game...

Laurel

Re: Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

Post by Laurel » 05 Jan 2013 20:15

I fail to remember A SINGLE whine when it was about Calian goblins/minotaurs teaming with Neidars
how about you stop and read Neidar Rules - especially the first one please

or continue and stop monks from using dragonscales (who does anyway) and turtle shells (huh!!!)?
stop AA farm Haradrims with pathetic RP excuses? bah! while at it stop AA and MM killing Barash!!!
stop Calians using Golden Tridents?
stop a lot of what has been part of this game for ages ... and play with the even smaller group of selected few who will stay

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Kas
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Re: Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

Post by Kas » 05 Jan 2013 20:30

arcon wrote:
Kas wrote:Regarding Rp, I see people are quick to condemn others by using pure _metagaming factors_ such as alignment in an argument to bash roleplay. This sounds fallacious me due to many factors.

A knight aiding a Da is considered "bad rp" because them being natural enemies, but is it always so? Or...a ranger aiding two mages to assassinate the ranger leader? Or some married knight seducing some elven chick, starting on a trail to death and
ruin? What about some Scop groveling before the Nine in the throneroom in Minas Morgul?

The use of alignment as an argument for "bad roleplay" I think is a very very poor one. In order to see if a character really plays his role "bad", you must look much deeper, scrutinize the events leading to the "abnormal" behaviour of said character, which in some very good cases are very long and intricate and often telling a story, for example, about someone's fall from "grace", or a turningpoint in their lives with or without obvious consequences. Anyone may be corrupted and work for the enemy, without compromising any aspects of character play, and I would dare to say, it may even ADD to the RP.

My experience with such events urges me to toss the "alignment"-thing right in the trashbin, and rather lean towards guilds setting their own positive/negative standings vs others as they please.
Wow, you just compared Irk grinding with Laurel and the ambush of Iliana. I don't even know what to say.

Great if you think this is all ok. Good for you. For me it destroys the game. Anyway I will step down from my high horse now. Please enjoy your "rp"game...
A strawman, Arcon. Nowhere did I compare Irk & Laurel vs the slaying of Iliana. I was speaking generally, focusing about using alignment alone as an argument as I keep hearing people spew this all the time, revealing their (obvious?) limitations of the concept of playing a character(with warts or no warts).

If I were to comment particulary on Irk & Laurel's case, I would better know alot more about them, their relationships and their reasons for whatever actions they decide to perform together in the game. Since I have no clue, except with perhaps some anecdotes, inductive thinking and hearsay, It would be wise for me to not jump to any conclusions. Ofcourse, if the stuff they do/did compromise their guilds as a whole on a level that prevents functionality for others, then it's a different ballgame.
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

Arcon

Re: Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

Post by Arcon » 05 Jan 2013 20:54

Cherek wrote: Anyway RP and PVP'ers stop playing, while the grinders stay, and some are probably converted (maybe against their will). I dont know what came first, the chicken or the egg, did these players types leave first and then things changed, or did they leave because of the changes? Either way, Genesis has turned from a game of RP, politics and PVP to a game of grinding and cooperation. The game has changed. Want to change it back? I do, but I feel like I am in a minority. Most people who actually still play the game do it because they enjoy EQ_hunting and grinding for new levels, often with RL friends, and they dont care much about RP and what guilds people are in. I am not saying its wrong, I am just saying how it is. Should then wizards step down and stop it? I dont think so.

If we want to change the game it must come at a much bigger level, and it will also need a real effort from both players and wizards. And most importantly, a majority of players must WANT the change and voice it loud and clear.

I mostly hear voices that want more grinding areas for myths, more guilds, and more cool items, and thats what we're getting. For good or for worse.

I guess I am having problems accepting this and that is making me frustrated. But I guess I should just accept it and do like everyone else that feels like me.

But I would like this question to be asked in game. There are A LOT of players that don't use the forum. Don't assume that what people say here is true for the majority. Most people don't post here. Do you the wizards want to know what people really think ask it in game.

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Zhar
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Re: Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

Post by Zhar » 06 Jan 2013 03:20

arcon wrote:
Cherek wrote: Anyway RP and PVP'ers stop playing, while the grinders stay, and some are probably converted (maybe against their will). I dont know what came first, the chicken or the egg, did these players types leave first and then things changed, or did they leave because of the changes? Either way, Genesis has turned from a game of RP, politics and PVP to a game of grinding and cooperation. The game has changed. Want to change it back? I do, but I feel like I am in a minority. Most people who actually still play the game do it because they enjoy EQ_hunting and grinding for new levels, often with RL friends, and they dont care much about RP and what guilds people are in. I am not saying its wrong, I am just saying how it is. Should then wizards step down and stop it? I dont think so.

If we want to change the game it must come at a much bigger level, and it will also need a real effort from both players and wizards. And most importantly, a majority of players must WANT the change and voice it loud and clear.

I mostly hear voices that want more grinding areas for myths, more guilds, and more cool items, and thats what we're getting. For good or for worse.

I guess I am having problems accepting this and that is making me frustrated. But I guess I should just accept it and do like everyone else that feels like me.

But I would like this question to be asked in game. There are A LOT of players that don't use the forum. Don't assume that what people say here is true for the majority. Most people don't post here. Do you the wizards want to know what people really think ask it in game.
Let me ask you a counter question:
How many requests do wizards get considering "nerf this" or "buff that" in comparison to "gief more emotes" and the like?

The truth is, RP is completely player-driven. Guilds give you some background, history, emotes, fellow members, common enemies et cetera but ultimately it's the players who engage (or not) in the role playing. If you're going to roleplay only as long as it suits your needs (ie: making exceptions when killing certain NPCs because they carry good gear) you might not doing it right. Sure, there are players who value RP above all else in Genesis. The thing is, they take what the world offers and make the best of it. They don't need huge stats, prime gear and all the other things that seem to be valued most by the majority this days, they just play they role.

You have to discern between "I want to roleplay" and "I want to roleplay but at the same time retain viable options regarding PvP and PvE" because Genesis is currently torn between different options and you can't have it all (but you sure can focus on one area and be successful at it).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Amberlee
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Re: Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

Post by Amberlee » 06 Jan 2013 05:12

Who says you can't have it all?
You can.. Quite easily..
RP does not exclude PvE or PvP.. That is just a fact.. Plain and simple..
However.
Both the PvP and PvE in genesis is deeply flawed.
And PvP wont really be a viable option for any goodie guild out there when the Goblins have so insane base physical stats.
So since the Admin just plain refuse to fix this.. What point is there?
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Greneth

Re: Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

Post by Greneth » 06 Jan 2013 05:17

amberlee wrote:Who says you can't have it all?
You can.. Quite easily..
RP does not exclude PvE or PvP.. That is just a fact.. Plain and simple..
However.
Both the PvP and PvE in genesis is deeply flawed.
And PvP wont really be a viable option for any goodie guild out there when the Goblins have so insane base physical stats.
So since the Admin just plain refuse to fix this.. What point is there?
We players should really test things out before assuming, trust me I held the same assumptions and was proven quite wrong. Things have changed, whether you see them or not is a different story because it hasn't been made public via wizards. While not everything has changed it is moving that way it seems.

Kas: Correct because Calians have no true mortal enemy guild they are not natural enemies of anyone else in game other then the Kroug. Some can argue what Caliana may or may not have agreed with but its all speculation, the base line is this. Calians are in place to protect Calia, not middle earth, not Krynn or any other domain. If you leave the lands of the Calian Palace/Gelan alone you will be left alone. But you wont find a single council member since they were formed due to the silly alliance (Which is dead) that will follow the lore to a T. I can maybe in my decade or so think of a few that believed in it but did little to promote it. Most promote the "We are goodies and hate your guild because that guild does".

Laurel: That GT is free game.

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Cherek
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Re: Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

Post by Cherek » 06 Jan 2013 06:44

Amberlee: Isnt it a stretch saying Genesis PVP is completely broken because of the races? It's always been like that, even at Genesis peak, and historically goodies have done fairly well in conflicts... Is it really more broken now than before? Or do you mean the bigger sizes in general makes the difference bigger? Please explain?

Anyway, as I always have believed I think the more or less missing PVP part of the game is what keeps it from growing in player numbers, and I also think more conflicts between guilds would introduce exactly what Arcon wants, people who are more true to their guild and definitely do NOT team with their enemies at all.

The whole game is super friendly. No real conflicts have been going on for a long while. I mean there's no real reasons for knights or calians to dislike angmars? Why should neidars really care about goblins? Yes, some "lore" tells them they should perhaps, but lets be realistic, for most people history and lore means very little compared to real experience. (probably goes for real life too). In the past, as a goodie, I grew up "hating" the angmars, because they were scary. Some roleplayed scary, but most importantly they behaved scary, they attacked people, the killed people, they gave you a reason to dislike them. I didnt enjoy hunting AAs because some lore told me to fight evil and they were supposedly evil. No I enjoyed hunting them because they went after me, my friends and my guildmates, because there was a real conflict going on when I started playing, and as a knight you learned to dislike the AAs because of what they had actually done and did, not because some books told you who and what you should dislike.

I bet Angmars had similar feelings and were not too fond of knights who would turn up in Bree and block-kill them in the post office, etc. Conflict back then was not only lore-based, it was actually happening, it was REAL. People created their own conflicts and their own history, and reasons for disliking each other.

Today? Most people are polite and friendly all around. No matter of guild. So why would they fight? Because dusty books in the guild tells them to?

Thats the main problem I think. Like I said before, the game has basically no competition going on. Its almost purely cooperation play. While co-op play also can be fun, in a game meant for it, I think our game is meant to have conflicts. Thats kind of how it is set up with goodies and evils, opposing factions, the lore, the hate between races and guilds that is written into the history books, etc.

However currently the game is played as a co-op game, which imho it was never supposed to be. Obviously there will be "odd" things. Like supposed enemies teaming, people dont really care about lore, etc. We have, somehow, turned the old game into another type of new game, and some parts of it arent designed for this new game...

If someone manages to solve the PVP issue, so we get FUN conflict and competition into the game again, then I think a lot of other things will be fixed too. This particular issue would definitely one of them I think. And while makes races more even in combat might be useful, there's a lot more to it than that I fear... might be a start though.

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Kas
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Re: Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

Post by Kas » 06 Jan 2013 07:24

I would start with scrutinizing Death and dying in Genesis. Why risk death if you loose a substantial time recovering?

This reminds me heavily on flying cheap easily replacable ships in Eve Online vs supercapitals. You can loose the ships and the gear on them if they are replacable enough, and get back into action in a reasonable timeframe, while loosing a superexpensive supercapital may give you the same reactions as in Genesis (quitting, loosing players, or going afk for some months, some never return).

There may simply be too much to loose on spawning conflicts these days, atleast on the current inflated sizes people run around with.
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

Laurel

Re: Should wizards enforce minimal guild rp?

Post by Laurel » 06 Jan 2013 14:26

Greneth wrote:Laurel: That GT is free game.
it is now
but c'mon - be the RP purist Arcon wants to pretend to be and you'll eventually get there
also - Neraka trolls being "training grounds" for PoT/DA friends ... another "RP" excuse for PP, just like Harads for AA

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