Mages on recoded balance

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Rincon
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Rincon » 28 Oct 2013 22:30

Third piece is that mages are an elite guild.
Exactly... and my question is does genesis really need elite guilds? Why give someone the right to be judge dredd and kill anyone they wish just because they 'wronged' him in some way.

Why not make MM the counterpart for rangers but on a similar power level?

I don't like the idea of elite guilds at all. Knowing that a mage can kill me in about 10 seconds completely puts me off from having any roleplaying interaction with them what so ever (this is partly a reply to Kas's question why aren't there any guild conflicts). Ok, you can start arguing that I can properly prepare myself by getting armours with magic/death protection, herbs, blablabla. But I dont really feel like spending over 4 hours by running after super rare eq that would give me a few more seconds of life or _maybe_ a chance to escape (but I doubt it).

If the mages were like any other guild I wouldn't have a problem RPing a little now and then. As it is, I just ignore them.

Manglor
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Manglor » 28 Oct 2013 22:49

Rincon wrote:If the mages were like any other guild I wouldn't have a problem RPing a little now and then. As it is, I just ignore them.
Whether you (or anyone) likes it or not, the recodes/balancing are only beginning. It's a long process. The Mages do have a history of being a powerful guild. They have been nerfed a few times over the years, but the recode is something new for us entirely.

MM was the first of the "elite" guilds (since I know you love that term) to be recoded. Who's to say what the future holds for the new Spirit Circle? From the sounds of things it's pretty awesome. Rangers? They were likely be upgraded significantly. SU? There are big changes coming.

The idea is balancing each guild around a certain level of power, with pros and cons equalling out to be roughly the same. Wait and see, and you'll hopefully be pleasantly surprised and what happens. I don't see too many DA members complaining about their recode. Same with Neidar.

The thing I don't get about your point above, though -- you (whoever you really are) only RP with people you can kill? What's the fun in that? You must spend a lot of time with Cadets?

Draugor
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Draugor » 28 Oct 2013 23:42

Manglor wrote:
Rincon wrote:
The thing I don't get about your point above, though -- you (whoever you really are) only RP with people you can kill? What's the fun in that? You must spend a lot of time with Cadets?

I think hes saying he doesent want to associate with people that can stun and nuke the crap outa him without him even having a chance to run :P Wich is one of the reasons why mage guilds are out of whack in genesis, dont get me wrong, I love most of the players in the guild, the guild itself... not so much since its almost a sure kill if they want you dead.

And magic ress armours etc, blech, there arent enough of them and the imbues dont drop enough with magic resistances so that its worth it, so for a fighter its a grind for months and hoping to get the correct items to stand a chance, and even IF you get the items needed, you cant keep them in the room so they can just sod off if they want to, unlike people that are stunned :P Sure sure Morguls need to prep, get the right herbs and brew pots, not even close to the same time it takes to get proper magic res armours, we need alot more magic res armours in the game :P

Still, a good way to avoid stuff like this is, dont piss them of :P Ignore them if anything and ffs dont kill in protected areas :P

Windemere
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Windemere » 29 Oct 2013 05:12

I think people are still speculating on matters to which they are not privy.

When you have been a Mage and know their pros and cons then I will consider you knowledgeable on the subject. As it is right now people are using half-truths, perceptions, and speculation to make claims about the guild. So far we have had one such member try to clarify things, but hey, what does he know.

When I said Elite guild I meant a guild that has standards of RP and requires a lot of doing to be a member. I did not mean an elite guild because of power. Elite guilds are made by the people who are in them, not by their abilities. Sorry if that was not clear.

I trust that the Balancing team, through alphas and betas, would develop a fair version of the Mages as the final release. If you think they are over powered, provide some sort of evidence as to why you think that, otherwise this is another witch hunt because someone got killed and is peeved about it.

I think I'll give the Wizards with the numbers, code, and understanding of overall game balance the benefit of the doubt for now. Suggestion would be to not attack Mages and be wary of their protected areas. Otherwise you might get attacked.

Windemere

Rincon
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Rincon » 29 Oct 2013 08:28

The thing I don't get about your point above, though -- you (whoever you really are) only RP with people you can kill? What's the fun in that? You must spend a lot of time with Cadets?
I think hes saying he doesent want to associate with people that can stun and nuke the crap outa him without him even having a chance to run :P Wich is one of the reasons why mage guilds are out of whack in genesis, dont get me wrong, I love most of the players in the guild, the guild itself... not so much since its almost a sure kill if they want you dead.
Exactly Draugor. What's the point of RPing with someone knowing that he can do whatever he pleases to call you names/piss you off/intimidate you/bully/raid your guild/enter your choice, etc. and you can't do anything about it or if you try you just get nuked for offending the eye :P For me it's similar when an RDA or BDA general is a hero/titan size and he's actually trying to convince the knights/neidars that evil will rule the world and he will be the conquerer (please). You need to have stats to back up your words if you're into fighting. And while I might have stats I will not be able to back up my words against a mage, so why even bother?

It's a totally different case for me when I'm up against a similar sized AA/BDA/RDA/Glad/Merc or any other fighter guild. I actually have fun talking it out or battling it out. No hard feelings, just a bit of adrenaline and fun *wink Jooli*
Who's to say what the future holds for the new Spirit Circle? From the sounds of things it's pretty awesome
The new elemental layman doesn't look all that awesome speaking powerwise, so why speculate about SC then?
Rangers? They were likely be upgraded significantly
Why not open MM and Rangers at the same time then? If rangers are really to get a power boost so they can actually start hunting and _killing_ mages then it would be awesome. If they are meant to survive an encounter with a MM then what's the point?
I trust that the Balancing team, through alphas and betas, would develop a fair version of the Mages as the final release
Fair as in being able to kill you in 20 and not 10 seconds? ;P *tease*

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Eowul
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Eowul » 29 Oct 2013 10:23

Caretaker of Arda

Laurel

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Laurel » 29 Oct 2013 11:22

Facts remains:
1. I have a gazylion options to counter melee - I have at least 2 global skills for that (parry + def) without even counting evasive specials out there and another bazylion armours (from shitty to superb)
2. I have only a few items to counter magic, compared to the amount of items in point 1
3. I have no global skills to increase my chances to survive, not to mention fight back

Without giving out any g-info - how fair is that new MMs are excluded (as in can NOT be put under effect of) from some global crucial elements of the game ONLY because they are undead (which fact they whine over as "issue" - good call there, MM-players!)? I am cordially asking for an undead branch of Rangers please. There is enough "source" for such a thing in Tolkien's LotR ;p

Btw. no excuses given in this threat (tax?!?!? no lay option?!?!? please ... kindly stick "elite" up your hmmm bones? after all the idiocies with your members) are excuse enough for what MM's got there. I would call what they got similar to Novo-vampires' perks - completely new things balanced out on paper, but NEVER in terms of playability. I'm afraid our wizards deeply forgot that play-experience is not possible to be followed up by calculating formulas and statistics.
It's like hearing them advertise for bow-usage in Gen ... a context as much fun as UNPLAYABLE in current Genesis. But I'm sure it looks good in formulas and statistics. I really am. Sheeeeeesh!!!
Celephias wrote:- The guild was recoded by a very competent wizard
Wasn't Novo described as one as well? I'm just looking for your point there ...
Celephias wrote:- The guild was extensively alpha and beta tested, with bugs and balance issues found and fixed
And yet you left typos in your spells' descriptions ... how are the chances you left "bugs and balance issues" in there as well?
Celephias wrote:- The spells are implemented under, and compliant with the new standardized magic system
How is that a reason for proving they cannot be op?
Celephias wrote:- Petros and team balanced plusses with minuses for the guild
How does this move us into direction of "yeah, MM's are balanced from a player perspective"?
Celephias wrote:- The guild is provably less powerful than it was before the recode
Says who? MMs? The standard reply on this board to such statements is usually: get to know your s*it ... or smth along these lines.

Habiki wrote:* That it is sensible for the MMs to be at least a little more powerful than other guilds, due to their RP.
* Like the Spirit Circle, they cannot have a layman branch as well, right?
* Also, I would assume that their guild tax is somewhat higher than a typical combination of occ + layman tax.
All of this is copy-pasted from Novo, or smth? Are we having the same discussion again as with Novo-vampire reasons to be OP?
Last edited by Laurel on 29 Oct 2013 12:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Snowrose
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Snowrose » 29 Oct 2013 12:12

i think we really should wait until recodes are over and more is known about the mages new powers before crying nerf. Genesis has been traditionally very mean to magic guilds and how we handle the mage recode may be the deciding factor on if they can safly add a good aligned caster, or what they do in ranger/SU recode.

in time we might find new equipment or tactics that make taking down a mage easier. maybe layman guilds will be given cool stuff to balence. We don't know enough to make suggestions.

I have heard many people complain there are not enough caster guilds this is one reason there are not. I am sure the mages might have more tweaking down the line as no code survives live release without a few bugs.
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Manglor
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Manglor » 29 Oct 2013 13:45

Rincon wrote:What's the point of RPing with someone knowing that he can do whatever he pleases to call you names/piss you off/intimidate you/bully/raid your guild/enter your choice, etc. and you can't do anything about it or if you try you just get nuked for offending the eye :P For me it's similar when an RDA or BDA general is a hero/titan size and he's actually trying to convince the knights/neidars that evil will rule the world and he will be the conquerer (please). You need to have stats to back up your words if you're into fighting. And while I might have stats I will not be able to back up my words against a mage, so why even bother?
Rincon wrote:
Who's to say what the future holds for the new Spirit Circle? From the sounds of things it's pretty awesome
The new elemental layman doesn't look all that awesome speaking powerwise, so why speculate about SC then?
The buzz is quite good, and I am speculating just as you are on MM. When existing members of the SC are excited about the upcoming changes, who am I to argue?
Rincon wrote:
Rangers? They were likely be upgraded significantly
Why not open MM and Rangers at the same time then? If rangers are really to get a power boost so they can actually start hunting and _killing_ mages then it would be awesome. If they are meant to survive an encounter with a MM then what's the point?
Excellent question. The only reason I can offer is that as per Gorboth's schedule, the recode to the base magic system was a priority. The Mages were identified as needing changes, and was done first. There must be reasons behind the order in which the recodes are done -- most likely due to available/interested wizards. I won't speculate as to why your suggestion wasn't done, however.

Your comparison between Eowul and Novo is just ridiculous, though. I'm pretty sure Gorboth learned his lesson. The fact that Petros signed off on this current incarnation of the Mages is proof enough that despite what you think you know about the guild, it's been severely overhauled. Rumours, whispers on "Skype", or whatever forms of communication you prefer do not a fact make.

A champion BDA/Necro fell to a large myth who got the jump on him? Sounds like someone needs to check their expectations. I'd expect a similar outcome for any guilds, melee or not. But, clearly I'm biased. *eyeroll*

When it comes to who's seen what, and what Draugor is referring to above -- consider the source and the OP...
Last edited by Manglor on 29 Oct 2013 17:29, edited 1 time in total.

Laurel

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Laurel » 29 Oct 2013 14:07

To make it clear - I'm not comparing Eowul to Novo.
I'm just saying that:
1. current wizards have no clue what is important player-wise, but rely on their statistics, numbers and tests
2. "reasons" which have been written here so far as those for giving MMs what they got are bollocks ;p

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