Mages on recoded balance

Only validated game players have access in this forum. Use this forum to discuss guilds. Note that as a general rule, guild abilities should not be revealed.
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 14 Nov 2013 19:30

Kas wrote:
Windemere wrote:Here is a concern with the balance concept.

If Spirit Circle are only good against Undeads that is a VERY small portion of the realms. Including PvE. And then you have Mages who are good against all fighters, and fighters who have no limitations against any other group. Basically the "undead hunters" are completely useless unless they hunt undeads while everyone else is able to hunt and grind whatever they wish without limitations.

Something needs to be different. Why would anyone choose to be so pigeonhold to one particular (small) group. It does not make for very fun play, even though it might make for good RP.

Windemere
Why go down that specialized limited path? I mean, undeads burn just aswell by fireballs/lightning/insert_elemental_thingy_here.
You are clerics afterall, opting for some anti-undead perks on the sideline if the idea is that you should have an edge. :P
Unless the undead hunters have an egde on you, you win against all. For rock paper scissors to work an undead hunter should always beat a mage.

If both mages and undead hunters are great against both fighters and each others, we end up with another system where we have two guilds that are great for killing fighters. And each other. And fighters are just cannon fodder.
Last edited by Kiara on 14 Nov 2013 19:31, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Amorana
Expert
Posts: 296
Joined: 04 Nov 2013 20:26

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Amorana » 14 Nov 2013 19:31

Is WOHS ready for public beta yet? I think I'm ready to kick everyone's ass.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

User avatar
Kas
Legend
Posts: 771
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kas » 14 Nov 2013 19:34

I disagree on the 'always beats' thing. Have an default edge/advantage at same parameters sounds more real.

Like, in 100 fights in Tyr arena, duellmode, the undead-hunter should win the fight perhaps 70% of the time vs an undead, like how Petros suggested earlier.
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

User avatar
Amorana
Expert
Posts: 296
Joined: 04 Nov 2013 20:26

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Amorana » 14 Nov 2013 19:35

Kas wrote:I disagree on the 'always beats' thing. Have an default edge/advantage at same parameters sounds more real.

Like, in 100 fights in Tyr arena, duellmode, the undead-hunter should win the fight perhaps 70% of the time vs an undead, like how Petros suggested earlier.
I think this is what he was getting at. People are reading every word said on these forums as God's word, handed down through the prophets.

A lot of you need to learn to read between the lines.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 14 Nov 2013 19:43

Kas wrote:I disagree on the 'always beats' thing. Have an default edge/advantage at same parameters sounds more real.

Like, in 100 fights in Tyr arena, duellmode, the undead-hunter should win the fight perhaps 70% of the time vs an undead, like how Petros suggested earlier.
"In an evenly matched battle, the chance of victory is supposed to be 50/50. In a situation where you have an advantage, that might be 60/40 or 70/30. Equipment can still make a big difference in the final result, and nothing is a foregone conclusion." - Petros

We can only talk about in an evenly matched battle though? Where both sides have equal EQ etc. And 50-50 doesnt sound right to me. Amorana, read between the lines? Hm well... it's hard to not be worried when the AoB says 50-50 is the plan though? And I think its best to bring up any concerns now, before the new guild is launched. If Petros meant something else than what I understood am sure he will share that and correct me.

Sure, 70-30 sounds about more right.

But that also means mages should be 70-30 vs fighters. (And fighters 70-30% vs undead hunters). Then its balance, mathematically.

Are mages 70-30 vs figthers? Well, we'll see. I doubt thats the case now... it feels more like 99%-1%?
Last edited by Kiara on 14 Nov 2013 19:47, edited 1 time in total.

Chanele
Titan
Posts: 510
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 12:39

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Chanele » 14 Nov 2013 19:46

That works if the mage win against a warrior with same percentage and warriors win over undead hunters. You guys are saying a mage wins 10/10 times against a warrior...

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 14 Nov 2013 19:49

Chanele wrote:That works if the mage win against a warrior with same percentage and warriors win over undead hunters. You guys are saying a mage wins 10/10 times against a warrior...
Yes thats exactly my point. The numbers must be the same for rocks, papers and scissors. All having the same win ratio. In the actual children's game its 100%, but here something like Kas suggested 70% win ratio sounds more reasonable.

Arcon

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Arcon » 14 Nov 2013 19:54

If a warrior of similar size and eq wins 30% of the fights against a mage(which I highly doubt) the big question is How many of those warrior will still survive? Mages used to have some very nasty poison so even if they would win they would still loose. Counting in aid from another player don't count since that changes the odds.

User avatar
Amorana
Expert
Posts: 296
Joined: 04 Nov 2013 20:26

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Amorana » 14 Nov 2013 19:55

Kiara wrote:
Kas wrote:I disagree on the 'always beats' thing. Have an default edge/advantage at same parameters sounds more real.

Like, in 100 fights in Tyr arena, duellmode, the undead-hunter should win the fight perhaps 70% of the time vs an undead, like how Petros suggested earlier.
"In an evenly matched battle, the chance of victory is supposed to be 50/50. In a situation where you have an advantage, that might be 60/40 or 70/30. Equipment can still make a big difference in the final result, and nothing is a foregone conclusion." - Petros

We can only talk about in an evenly matched battle though? Where both sides have equal EQ etc. And 50-50 doesnt sound right to me. Amorana, read between the lines? Hm well... it's hard to not be worried when the AoB says 50-50 is the plan though? And I think its best to bring up any concerns now, before the new guild is launched. If Petros meant something else than what I understood am sure he will share that and correct me.

Sure, 70-30 sounds about more right.

But that also means mages should be 70-30 vs fighters.

Are they? Well, we'll see. I doubt thats the case now!
How about considering the fact that the word "advantage" likely refers to a natural advantage. As in, I walk up to a mage and slap him the face as a myth dwarf mercenary or BDA or Gladiator (who actually has decent damage dealing abilities - I'm sorry, but the Neidars do not and are not a fair comparison here, imo), and he and I go toe to toe, and he wins 70% of the time.

Everyone complaining about Logg's death right now likes to ignore the fact that the Mages were imbued to the hilt, likes to ignore the fact that Logg (likely) didn't have a single imbue or piece of equipment that was going to help ward off an attack. You want to complain about how hard it is to get imbuements to ward off such an attack? How about how long it took the mages to get all the imbuements they were wearing. That was not an easy feat either.

You know, if it was Logg wearing Bubba armour with a Kalad Axe vs a SINGLE mage wearing Bubba Armour and a bought weapon of whatever caliber, and that mage happened to be the exact same size... I'm willing to bet Logg (even being the awful damage dealers that the Neidars are) would have held his own far better. But that's not the situation. And instead of recognizing that fact, everyone wants to say "OMG LOGG DIED! HE'S SUCH A FAT DWARF! NERF THE MAGES!"
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 14 Nov 2013 20:13

Amorana: Uh? Yeah... everyone can get imbuements and stuff. But for balance purposes we gotta compare "all else equal"-situations. Meaning neither side has imbues or anything else that both sides can use for their advantage. Two equal guilds are two guilds where none have imbues etc and its 50-50 chance either side wins. What natural advantages do you mean? I am not sure I understand?

Personally I never said a word about "nerf mages". I dont think many others have either? What people say is we need more resistances (which Petros says too), and crowd control abilities needs to be balanced too. Who said nerf? I have at least always said upgrade the rest of us in terms of PVP abilities and resistances, if needed, dont nerf mages.

The current discussion is about the balancing model. I am perfectly fine with mages winning say 70-30 on average against fighters. Or mroe. But then undead hunters should have the same win ratio against mages, and fighters over undead hunters.

Its not about nerfing mages. At least not from my side. Its about a fun game where everyone has fun, and usually balanced games are the most fun.

As for Loggs death. Well I think the mage would have won 10 out of 10 fights, even if neither side had imbues or anything, in that "Bubba fight" you're describing. The mage should win. I base that on the fact the Gorboth said mages SHOULD beat fighters in a one vs one fight, that and just gut feeling...

But I started my event to find out these things! So instead of speculating we should all be out hunting mages!

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/