Mages on recoded balance

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Ody
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Ody » 23 Oct 2016 20:25

I don't think most of the things the Morguls can do can be justified by lore. Flaming swords? Breathing poisons? Breaking weapons?

But like you say, Kvator. Historically where all the wizard alts are so who cares?
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I stay up high, flying solo; Don't come too close
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I steal your heart in the shadows; Don't come too close
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Rincon
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Rincon » 23 Oct 2016 21:27

Well, everyone agrees that the MM are just too powerful in comparison to other guilds (not gonna disclose guild features here). If MM players value RP so much, they shouldn't care about power. I'm not saying MM should be turned into a club and have emotes only, BUT... ;)

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Arman
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Arman » 24 Oct 2016 00:53

Actually, MM is more a breeding ground for players who become wizards, rather than being where wizards put their alts.

The reality of why the MMs are the way they are now is, in my mind, how magic guilds have evolved in Genesis over 25 years.

Magic guilds are hard to code. Up until recently there was no consistent base code that assisted in the creation and balancing of such guilds, which is part of the reason why there is a big imbalance in numbers of fighting guilds and magic guilds. The MMs are the longest surviving magic guild in the game.

The MMs in the mid 90s were pretty rotten. Every spell consumed expensive and rare herbs (herbs weren't anywhere near as prevalent as they are now). Herbs didn't save on players. And stocks of herbs were always low. Imagine having to have to spend the first 30 minutes of your gaming session collecting herbs to be able to activate your kattacks or battacks for 15 minutes. The guild was essentially a fancy title with emotes until you reached the more senior ranks, and players completely relied on their layman guild (which was typically the Army of Angmar). The veil of secrecy that has become standard for MM was largely to disguise their craptasticness :).

Olorin, the Lord of Gondor at the time acknowledged all this and did a lot of work to make them a playable guild. Hooded cloaks were introduced, as with new spells. Because magic guilds were so hard to code, they were also really hard to balance against melee guilds... and thematically they got a bit mixed.

A good example is fire spells. If there is one thing MMs should be petrified of, it is fire (a group of Nazgul weren't too keen on a torch being waved in front of them).. But that became one of their core spell elements. Thematically I think fire would be a good counterpoint for the MMs, but you can always argue that the servants of Mordor could have an affinity to it too.

What they are like now I am not so sure about... they have gone through a recode along with a number of the magic guilds. Thematically they have evolved as Genesis has evolved. And it wouldn't surprise me if they go through further evolutions as the Middle Earth domains evolve.

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Kas
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kas » 24 Oct 2016 09:48

Rincon wrote:Well, everyone agrees that the MM are just too powerful in comparison to other guilds (not gonna disclose guild features here). If MM players value RP so much, they shouldn't care about power. I'm not saying MM should be turned into a club and have emotes only, BUT... ;)
Well, thematically spoken, I belive the Nine was deceived by the promise of power and longevity first and foremost by Sauron by giving them rings of power. Naturally, dealing with the "devil" usually entail some stuff in fine print. Power and control is an important aspect of ME domination, and is a typical trait darklords et al usually pursue or strive to get one way or another. It's a recurring theme.

When it comes to guildpower from a technical perspective, it's regulated by the AoB. Furthermore, maybe unlike other guilds that give similar level of "power", know that since the recode, everyone who wants to pursue it is given a fair chance. It literary can take just minutes from you apply/or you are lured to the tower until you actually join the guild. Pretty generous, heh?

Naturally, the guild also selfregulate in a sort of sense; You can join up in mere minutes, but can you survive long enough to actually reap the higher hanging fruits of the guild, fully knowing it's actually a conscious decision?

Since the recode, only 2 surviving fullmages has been produced since 2012 from a large pool of candidates, all destroyed by their own whim or lack of stamina to survive the constant pressure the tower generated upon them, so even if the guild hypothetically is stronger than other guilds, it can't generate enough members to make much of an impact.

Very rare, powerful, and feared. Pretty thematic for the Nazgul.

.
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

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Dhez
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Dhez » 24 Oct 2016 11:51

I found Kas' last comment to be thought provoking, and I'd like to share my opinion the topics he touched on. As a disclaimer: regarding balance, power, abilities and such - I have no clue and I find bliss in this ignorance. What interested me about his comment was the applicant/success ratio along with its reasons and implications.

When looking at much of Genesis I like to think it's "inspired by" instead of "based on" the lore it resembles. The problem is fans of this lore will always call out players stepping out of traditional lore for not being as strict as their interpretation of it. That's the beauty of domains like Terel, Avenir, Calia and such. They draw inspiration from certain cultures but aren't subject to strict interpretations for their adherence to them, or lackt thereof. Krynn and Middle Earth are domains I wouldn't be able to do much with since I didn't grow up around Lord of the Rings or Dragonlance, and by now my taste is already too set in its ways for me to pick up Tolkien or D&D and try to develop a gusto for it.

In terms of strict role-play and the difficulty of joining and surviving in so called elite guilds (i.e. guilds that require effort from the player in various forms: withstanding psychological pressure, overcoming intellectual and creative challenges, or requiring lateral thinking and a capacity for immersion, etc.), I find that regardless of what the popular opinion is these guilds actually do want players to succeed in their intent to join, as long as they are fit to be a representative of said guild. Active, full guilds are great, and I'm sure we all enjoy interactions with our respective guild members. A rich, deep, immersive and rewarding environment that enriches role-play and the development of any character going through it is one of the most positive traits Genesis has going for itself. However, some kinds of job descriptions (i.e. role-play required for a guild membership) may not be for everyone, hence these guilds often present a low quantity yet high quality of members.
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Kvator
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kvator » 24 Oct 2016 19:23

Kas wrote:
Rincon wrote:Well, everyone agrees that the MM are just too powerful in comparison to other guilds (not gonna disclose guild features here). If MM players value RP so much, they shouldn't care about power. I'm not saying MM should be turned into a club and have emotes only, BUT... ;)
Well, thematically spoken, I belive the Nine was deceived by the promise of power and longevity first and foremost by Sauron by giving them rings of power. Naturally, dealing with the "devil" usually entail some stuff in fine print. Power and control is an important aspect of ME domination, and is a typical trait darklords et al usually pursue or strive to get one way or another. It's a recurring theme.

When it comes to guildpower from a technical perspective, it's regulated by the AoB. Furthermore, maybe unlike other guilds that give similar level of "power", know that since the recode, everyone who wants to pursue it is given a fair chance. It literary can take just minutes from you apply/or you are lured to the tower until you actually join the guild. Pretty generous, heh?

Naturally, the guild also selfregulate in a sort of sense; You can join up in mere minutes, but can you survive long enough to actually reap the higher hanging fruits of the guild, fully knowing it's actually a conscious decision?

Since the recode, only 2 surviving fullmages has been produced since 2012 from a large pool of candidates, all destroyed by their own whim or lack of stamina to survive the constant pressure the tower generated upon them, so even if the guild hypothetically is stronger than other guilds, it can't generate enough members to make much of an impact.

Very rare, powerful, and feared. Pretty thematic for the Nazgul.

.
so funny - ppl write about skills, you reply about recruitment process

seems legit!

MMs PR Manager strikes back!

and about thematic stuff:

Knight of Crown was able to kill goddess and Ranger of North could scare of a bunch of powerful and feared Nazguls with single torch :D

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Ody
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Ody » 24 Oct 2016 20:19

Kvator wrote:
Kas wrote:
Rincon wrote:Well, everyone agrees that the MM are just too powerful in comparison to other guilds (not gonna disclose guild features here). If MM players value RP so much, they shouldn't care about power. I'm not saying MM should be turned into a club and have emotes only, BUT... ;)
Well, thematically spoken, I belive the Nine was deceived by the promise of power and longevity first and foremost by Sauron by giving them rings of power. Naturally, dealing with the "devil" usually entail some stuff in fine print. Power and control is an important aspect of ME domination, and is a typical trait darklords et al usually pursue or strive to get one way or another. It's a recurring theme.

When it comes to guildpower from a technical perspective, it's regulated by the AoB. Furthermore, maybe unlike other guilds that give similar level of "power", know that since the recode, everyone who wants to pursue it is given a fair chance. It literary can take just minutes from you apply/or you are lured to the tower until you actually join the guild. Pretty generous, heh?

Naturally, the guild also selfregulate in a sort of sense; You can join up in mere minutes, but can you survive long enough to actually reap the higher hanging fruits of the guild, fully knowing it's actually a conscious decision?

Since the recode, only 2 surviving fullmages has been produced since 2012 from a large pool of candidates, all destroyed by their own whim or lack of stamina to survive the constant pressure the tower generated upon them, so even if the guild hypothetically is stronger than other guilds, it can't generate enough members to make much of an impact.

Very rare, powerful, and feared. Pretty thematic for the Nazgul.

.
so funny - ppl write about skills, you reply about recruitment process

seems legit!

MMs PR Manager strikes back!

and about thematic stuff:

Knight of Crown was able to kill goddess and Ranger of North could scare of a bunch of powerful and feared Nazguls with single torch :D
Just give them the ability to snap their fingers and make people die anywhere in the doughnut. After all. It's impossible to join or impossible to get to the high levels or whatever bullshit. Therefore there are so few of them they need to have infinite power. It's only fair for the poor bastards.
All I am is your Van Gogh; I paint our dreams on the golden coast
I stay up high, flying solo; Don't come too close
I just ghost
I told you I am the new Poe; I sold my soul to the radio
I steal your heart in the shadows; Don't come too close
I just ghost

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Kas
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kas » 25 Oct 2016 00:33

Maybe one can simply walk into Mordor with torches? :D
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

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Mersereau
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Mersereau » 25 Oct 2016 13:40

Arman wrote:Every spell consumed expensive and rare herbs (herbs weren't anywhere near as prevalent as they are now). Herbs didn't save on players. And stocks of herbs were always low.
No.
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-Mel Brooks

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Kas
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kas » 25 Oct 2016 15:01

Arman wrote: ...A good example is fire spells. If there is one thing MMs should be petrified of, it is fire (a group of Nazgul weren't too keen on a torch being waved in front of them).. But that became one of their core spell elements. Thematically I think fire would be a good counterpoint for the MMs, but you can always argue that the servants of Mordor could have an affinity to it too.
Well, one could argue that it's not necessarily fire itself, but maybe the light it produces. So more radiant stuff. It's often a recurring theme in fantasy that wraiths are more vulnerable to light and therefore strongest in the darkness. :)
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

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