Mages on recoded balance

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gorboth
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by gorboth » 30 Oct 2013 17:01

Heh ... self-censorship, eh, Manglor? Nice job! :-)

This is a fascinating thread, to be sure. It is always good to see how the rollout of new guild material is perceived, and what comments arise as to its balance, etcetera. There is always a learning curve when dealing with powers you are not accustomed to facing, just as there is a learning curve to using such new powers. When the Morgul Mages were in alpha and beta test, some felt that the guild had been made unplayable, others felt it was playable (barely) but no longer fun. Fortunately, most felt that while it was considerably less powerful than the old build, that it had actually been made more interesting to play and remained very fun.

The concept of guild tax is something that, for over a decade, remained fully visible to players. When you used to sign up for a guild, the tradition was to have the documentation say things like, "In exchange for training and showing you the ropes, the Ditch-Digger guild will charge an 18% tax to your total experience." It was eventually decided that this tradition was not in harmony with the aesthetic philisophy that Genesis to remove numbers from the players' experience as a way to increase immersion. So, ten or so years ago, all tax information was removed from what players could see. A different approach might have been to simply shift the information to some linguistic representation:

Code: Select all

For the [x] guild, you experience ...

    insubstantial
    minimal
    slight
    moderate
    [etc]

... taxation on your earned experience.
But, we don't do even that, and players are just left guessing. I'm not opposed to implementing a system such as above, because understanding tax does help understand balance. If a guild has a high level of power, they do buy it with tax. And, in having higher tax, they grow much more slowly from their efforts in combat. For example, if a guild costs 18% tax, this means that the total non-quest experience that a player earns is reduced by 18%. This is why guild tax and power are linked, because the tradeoff for high power is slower growth.

G.
Mmmmmm ... pie ...

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Habiki
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Habiki » 30 Oct 2013 17:24

Good post Gorboth, thanks.

I think that such a linguistic system of tax representation would be preferable to no information. It may help people decide which guilds to join, especially if a smaller character needs to grow. Perhaps that information could be added to the Sparkle library guild information?

To give some credence to Laurel's posts (which I normally wouldn't do! hehe), there is validity to his point about the actual effects of numbers on play-ability. While it may be somewhat harder to grow with higher tax, and that is some balancing justification for more powerful guild abilities, tax has no direct effect on PVP combat.

Sure, if a character is a hero and joins the Mages, it will be a little harder to grow, hypothetically. However, let's say a player is a Mercenary with no layman guild and grinds up to Legend or Myth. THEN, that character leaves the lower tax guild and joins the MMs, thus becoming very powerful in PvE and PvP combat. Yet, the actually ramifications of the high guild tax are negligible, since that player has already loaded up on non-quest experience. It would really only matter if that character is trying to reach an uber-myth status or is in death recovery.

That being said, I like a challenge (not that I'm out fighting MMs) and the fear reaction caused by meeting an MM in the world. It adds drama to the game. Still, as many have said, it leads us to avoid any interaction with MMs, which in turn decreases drama and roleplay.

I look forward to the PvP arena system that is supposedly in development. Once we have that and all the guild recodes are completed, I think it will be a great testing ground for achieving true guild balance. That's my 2cc.
Last edited by Habiki on 30 Oct 2013 17:28, edited 1 time in total.

Laurel

Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Laurel » 30 Oct 2013 17:27

gorboth wrote:the tradeoff for high power is slower growth.

G.
seriously even after introducing death recovery you still think so?

besides: the tradeoff formula you mention (tax & growth pace) doesn't include killing speed, which also impacts growth
if you took your formula, guildless people would be best off in terms of growth pace, which I doubt you think is true ;p

Celephias
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Celephias » 30 Oct 2013 17:47

Habiki wrote:Good post Gorboth, thanks.

I think that such a linguistic system of tax representation would be preferable to no information. It may help people decide which guilds to join, especially if a smaller character needs to grow. Perhaps that information could be added to the Sparkle library guild information?

To give some credence to Laurel's posts (which I normally wouldn't do! hehe), there is validity to his point about the actual effects of numbers on play-ability. While it may be somewhat harder to grow with higher tax, and that is some balancing justification for more powerful guild abilities, tax has no direct effect on PVP combat.

Sure, if a character is a hero and joins the Mages, it will be a little harder to grow, hypothetically. However, let's say a player is a Mercenary with no layman guild and grinds up to Legend or Myth. THEN, that character leaves the lower tax guild and joins the MMs, thus becoming very powerful in PvE and PvP combat. Yet, the actually ramifications of the high guild tax are negligible, since that player has already loaded up on non-quest experience. It would really only matter if that character is trying to reach an uber-myth status or is in death recovery.

That being said, I like a challenge (not that I'm out fighting MMs) and the fear reaction caused by meeting an MM in the world. It adds drama to the game. Still, as many have said, it leads us to avoid any interaction with MMs, which in turn decreases drama and roleplay.

I look forward to the PvP arena system that is supposedly in development. Once we have that and all the guild recodes are completed, I think it will be a great testing ground for achieving true guild balance. That's my 2cc.
Habiki - not that I disagree with the premise at face value, but I don't believe we have had a player come in huge and stay huge. If for no other reason, the stat spec for a mage is very different than a melee player. Some of us have been magic users our whole life and have grown, relatively slowly, that way ;-) I will also say that you really need to grow all stats to be a mage. You can skimp on dis after a point (which I always found silly - dis should be more important) and str after a point if you can handle being encumbered. So, you ostensibly have a higher tax and more stats to spread exp gains across.

As for PvP, I think the arena will be a bit contrived as a means of measuring balance and you can bet you'll never see a mage in there. This kind of dueling is not practical PvP. When I was King, I forbade 'sparring' - it solves no RP purpose for the guild. Unless of course the One Ring was the prize, then we'd find a way to tilt the arena in our favor. ;-) That being said, the last tourney Alorrana held was quite interesting and fun. If memory serves, the Rangers gave a very good accounting of themselves in it.

Celephias
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Celephias » 30 Oct 2013 17:59

Laurel wrote:
gorboth wrote:the tradeoff for high power is slower growth.

G.
seriously even after introducing death recovery you still think so?

besides: the tradeoff formula you mention (tax & growth pace) doesn't include killing speed, which also impacts growth
if you took your formula, guildless people would be best off in terms of growth pace, which I doubt you think is true ;p
I think you're right about this Laurel. Its been a observation of mine the whole time as a spellcaster - we don't grind well. If a spellcaster isn't in recovery, you hardly ever see them in killing machines. Sustained exp gaining is never anything spellcasters have been good at in Gen unless you team up with fighter-types. I think this is by design.

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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Manglor » 30 Oct 2013 19:06

Celephias wrote:I think you're right about this Laurel. Its been a observation of mine the whole time as a spellcaster - we don't grind well. If a spellcaster isn't in recovery, you hardly ever see them in killing machines. Sustained exp gaining is never anything spellcasters have been good at in Gen unless you team up with fighter-types. I think this is by design.
This goes for all caster guilds, too. It's near impossible to grind xp, unless you have someone dragging them around. Of course, when you near myth as a caster, things do open up more. Even then, Mages have never been overly sought-after teammates for long xp fests, given the limited sustained DPS they bring. Burst DPS is great for bosses and pvp, but sustained DPS is much more valuable for a long team session...something that Casters generally just don't offer. Would you rather a caster who burns out after a few rooms or a melee who does 70% of a Mage's damage consistently without tiring?

Just another drawback of the lowly Morgul Mage. *grin*

In before Laurel's "omg statcloud" ... since you know ALL ABOUT the newly recoded Mages (somehow ... ?)

Draugor
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Draugor » 30 Oct 2013 19:17

Manglor wrote: Even then, Mages have never been overly sought-after teammates for long xp fests, given the limited sustained DPS they bring.
You mean the award winning personalities of most mages doesent count? :D You're ofc the cuddly one of the bunch ;)

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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 30 Oct 2013 23:45

For PVE... so if a guild has a tax of 50% they should be allowed to kill things twice as quick as a guild with 25% tax? I guess that makes sense... So you actually do calculation on this? Kill-speed vs tax? Or how do you come up with the tax numbers?

But anyway, tax may work as a balancing factor in PVE (MAY work), but how do we balance PVP? PVP is the main issue in this thread, and when mages is the topic, its almost always PVP people complain on isnt it? (Its almost always in PVP people complain about balance no matter which guilds are involved).

It seems like a few guilds have PVP abilities, but most dont. That is the biggest problem I think. Maybe not ALL guilds need PVP abilities, but I think a lot more should have something??

Kenders could maybe trip someone, making them unable to move for a short while. Monks could maybe have a stun that makes people "out of breath" so they move more slowly for a short while. DAs could have dragons that actually do make you slightly paralyzed for real. Rangers could maybe throw sand in your eyes which not only blinds, but also forces you to move slower for awhile (because of being blinded). And so on... but within reason. Not 1 min paralyze. Ogres for instance seem to have a fairly well-balaned PVP ability. Use it as guide and add more to the rest of us?? Then I think we could have some fun PVP, because people always complain that either:
A - I dont bother with PVP, it's no fun since when I try fight people they just press a button and theyre on the other side of the domain using speedwalking.
or
B - PVP is no fun because I cant fight back, and my enemy can kill me whenever they want.

Give everyone some ability to fight back. (not just escape) Then we solve both!

I think those abilities were for the most part forgotten in the rebalancing of guilds. A few guilds seem to have gotten something, but most not. And the global block? Well.... it doesnt aid much in PVP at all since its simply too weak in most situations. So the basic problem to me is some guilds can be successful in PVP either by doing a lot of damage quickly, or, even more importantly, they can keep someone from escaping. And since most cant do this, we get imbalanced PVP, which I think is the main reason why people dont think its fun.

And tax? It doesnt matter in PVP. Even if a guild has 95% tax, you can always grind your way up in a low-tax guild, then join the hi-tax guild with good PVP abilities, and kick peoples butt! And one-sided battles are BORING - for both sides.

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Kas
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kas » 31 Oct 2013 13:57

Most pvp-encounters are onesided though due to difference in size and level of preparedness. The last mm-kills falls into one or both of these categories with hopeless margins, putting the mm in positions of major advantages every single time.
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Windemere » 31 Oct 2013 15:00

Two people meeting randomly and deciding they will fight will result in one thing. Both parties surviving.

Proper PvP as Kas has said involves planning and deliberate decision making on what equipment, what location, what teammates (if any), etc.. in order to assure the demise of your opponent. Kiara, you may not be able to trip anyone, but you can certainly find a friendly Ogre to help you. As well, you don't need anyone to block or stun if you choose the appropriate location. Doing it at the Huge Sign in Bree is probably the worst place, unless you have the ability to slow or stun.

Any club user can have the ability to stun if they know what item to use, there are possibly others like this for the other weapons. As well, Caltrops, why don't we use those anymore! Not everyone remembers to wear boots!

In respect to tax, I do not think the calculation is so simple that it is based on killing speed. We have heard terms before like "combat advantage" which I imagine plays into it. As well, I imagine the skills that they can train, to what level, what they have at their guild to assist them, what sort of other special abilities they get.

Again, I go back to the initial point I made. We are all speculating off limited information and making judgement. There are certainly other pieces at play here that we are not privy to. The Wizarding community is constantly monitoring the new roll out of guilds and listening to legitimate complaints (likely not posted on this board even though many are here) sent to them, and reviewing.

My suggestion, as always, avoid doing anything to draw the ire of the MM. That has always been good practice.

Windemere

Edited *Made a grammatical mistake and needed to fix it.*

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