Mages on recoded balance

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Kiara
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 31 Oct 2013 16:16

Kas wrote:Most pvp-encounters are onesided though due to difference in size and level of preparedness. The last mm-kills falls into one or both of these categories with hopeless margins, putting the mm in positions of major advantages every single time.
If Sweden play Norway in football and Sweden prepared better, drew up good tactics while the Norwegians went out partying the night before, and if Sweden also have better football players to begin with, then it's perfectly understandable if Sweden wins. But if Sweden also gets to start with 11 players on the field, and Norway 5, then it bound to be a very one-sided game no matter how much anyone plans and prepares.

Why this likeness??!:) Well, no matter how much you plan or not, some guilds have better PVP tools that others. You must agree on this too? Is not that a bad thing? Yes, planning and size and stuff is good to have. But anyone can plan, anyone can grow stats. That's fine. But giving a few guilds PVP-special abilities, and the rest not, just makes it unbalanced from the start. And I am speaking generally here, not talking about mages specifically. Who's had the best PVP tools historically has probably changed over time, but mages have always been in the top I am pretty sure. How much that has changed with the recode? I dont know. But either way, no guild should be completely superior in PVP to another guild. Different, yes. Superior, no. And I hope our nice wizards also consider PVP balance when balancing the guilds. It feels like something that's been little bit neglected though, since many of the recoded guilds didnt get any PVP-specific abilities, but some did? It would be nice to hear from a wizard on the PVP-balance topic! Hear someone explain how you're balancing it, how's it supposed to work, etc. Thanks!

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gorboth
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by gorboth » 31 Oct 2013 16:49

Kiara,

Lethality comes in different forms, and has a great deal to do with knowing your opponent's abilities and drawbacks. At this point, there is a great deal of mystery surrounding the (recoded) Mage guild because such information has not been made public, and will not be made public other than by those who learn it through the natural encounters the game will provide, or by info shared or discussed by members of the Mage guild themselves.

Sustained vs. burst style damage-dealing abilities have been discussed in this thread by the Mages themselves, so I don't mind repeating it. An archetype throughout fantasy RPG computer games is the idea that a mage can deal unparallelled damage in bursts, but with the issue of mana-management to contend with. Once they are "out of gas" they have no option but to retreat and recover. Another thing that has been openly discussed in this forum is the degree to which the mages are subject to specific resistance types. A player who decks themselves out with sufficient gear dealing with resistances, has sufficient preparation or abilities with health recovery has, even before the recode, proved sufficient in thwarting even the most lethal mages in pvp encounters.

So, Kiara, what are you hoping to see in terms of pvp balance? All guilds doing exactly the same style and level of damage with their attacks, but simply dressed up in different text descriptions? That is certainly not what we have in mind. All things being equal, a mage can, should, and will destroy a melee opponent. By this, I mean that if a fighter wants to stand toe-to-toe with a mage, both of them wearing the same gear and having the same size and health, and simply employing their attacks against one another as the only tactic, the mage does more damage and will win.

G.
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Kiara
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 31 Oct 2013 17:37

Not speaking about mages specifically Gorboth. I dont know enough about their abilities or counters really. Especially not the new ones. I am talking about how to make PVP in general more fun and even. Because you have to admit these days when someone get killed there's usually mostly complaining and bad stuff coming from it... and thats not really fun for any part, killer or killed.

The main problem with PVP balance as I see it is keeping people from speedwalking away. Some few guilds can, some dont. Dealing damage and absorbing damage is something all guilds have ways to do. Different ways, but all can do it. But only very few can actually keep people from escaping really easily. And everyone knows thats the key to striking a kill in most situations. In the past we had lag, and since then its been harder. Vampires were good at this, also old mages. So they had a much easier time killing people than most other guilds. Same with knights of old... and so on.

All guilds do damage in very different ways, but all guilds DO damage. Surely there could be a way to give all guilds some PVP ability without it being "the same" for everyone too?

Just as we have "burst" and "sustained" damage. I am sure we can think of different ways of employing clever PVP abilities too. There's plenty of ways. Making people tired, blocking, making people move slower for a period of time, stunning someone from moving completely for a short while, making someone confused about directions, blinding someone, clinging to someone, and so on... I get the different types of damage thing, and I agree on that. Different ways is more fun the the exact same. Would just be cool to have more different ways to make PVP more fun, more tacticical, and more dangerous. Not just "hit button"-> run to safety. Unless you happen to be in one of the very few guilds than can keep that from happening.

And no Windemere, caltrops just doesnt work as good these days I think!
Last edited by Kiara on 31 Oct 2013 18:02, edited 2 times in total.

Chanele
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Chanele » 31 Oct 2013 18:01

Gorboth:
As it is today a warrior will most likely die before any damage can penetrate a Midnightblack platemail and two silvanesti towershields. I think the problem lies with casters defence rather then offence. Maybe there should be a limit on how much AC a caster can have versus a melee character?

Is it possible to nullify caster spells with resistance gear at the same level as melee damage? Can we find enough gear with resistance as easy as normal armours?

I also think I will agree with Kiara on balance evil casters/good aligned casters. Everyone should have the need of carrying two sets of armours not only warriors.

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Kas
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kas » 31 Oct 2013 19:12

Kiara wrote:Not speaking about mages specifically Gorboth. I dont know enough about their abilities or counters really. Especially not the new ones. I am talking about how to make PVP in general more fun and even. Because you have to admit these days when someone get killed there's usually mostly complaining and bad stuff coming from it... and thats not really fun for any part, killer or killed.

The main problem with PVP balance as I see it is keeping people from speedwalking away. Some few guilds can, some dont. Dealing damage and absorbing damage is something all guilds have ways to do. Different ways, but all can do it. But only very few can actually keep people from escaping really easily. And everyone knows thats the key to striking a kill in most situations. In the past we had lag, and since then its been harder. Vampires were good at this, also old mages. So they had a much easier time killing people than most other guilds. Same with knights of old... and so on.

All guilds do damage in very different ways, but all guilds DO damage. Surely there could be a way to give all guilds some PVP ability without it being "the same" for everyone too?

Just as we have "burst" and "sustained" damage. I am sure we can think of different ways of employing clever PVP abilities too. There's plenty of ways. Making people tired, blocking, making people move slower for a period of time, stunning someone from moving completely for a short while, making someone confused about directions, blinding someone, clinging to someone, and so on... I get the different types of damage thing, and I agree on that. Different ways is more fun the the exact same. Would just be cool to have more different ways to make PVP more fun, more tacticical, and more dangerous. Not just "hit button"-> run to safety. Unless you happen to be in one of the very few guilds than can keep that from happening.

And no Windemere, caltrops just doesnt work as good these days I think!
Tried assassinating someone in a traplocation?

If you want to kill someone, gather enough people/dps and wait in a traplocation. Yeah, it even works on mages! :D
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Manglor » 31 Oct 2013 19:14

Chanele wrote:Gorboth:
As it is today a warrior will most likely die before any damage can penetrate a Midnightblack platemail and two silvanesti towershields. I think the problem lies with casters defence rather then offence. Maybe there should be a limit on how much AC a caster can have versus a melee character?
At first blush when this was brought up a few years back, I scoffed at it. But I do agree with you, Chanele. Traditionally, Mages have always worn robes and little else. Enough artistic portrayals have been done on Nazgul, WoHS, etc. and none show iron-clad behemoths using shields. I don't know if it's AC or weight of the item (there are ways to get around this obv so it needs to be monitored...the bodystocking comes to mind...) that should be limited but I wholeheartedly agree.

Protective spells/wards should be the only thing protecting a caster of any sort.

Kiara
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 31 Oct 2013 19:19

Kas: Yes everyone can use things like trap locations, plans, schemes, and teams to kill someone. But I dont understand what that has to do with PVP guild balance? Thats just player smartness. Has nothing to with which guild you belong to, and that was the topic I brought up. Guild differences. Not player knowledge. Thats two different things.

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Kas
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kas » 31 Oct 2013 20:02

Kiara wrote:Kas: Yes everyone can use things like trap locations, plans, schemes, and teams to kill someone. But I dont understand what that has to do with PVP guild balance? Thats just player smartness. Has nothing to with which guild you belong to, and that was the topic I brought up. Guild differences. Not player knowledge. Thats two different things.
Ah, right. Sometimes players mix those though, complaining about a guild's potency when it actually is irrelevant.

Regarding actual guild differences, I think there's alot of factors not even mentioning on this board that may contribute, like for example to grow a member to functional status, downtimes, component upkeep, restrictions, weaknesses and penalties, the role to play, retardation in character growth vs a melee etc.

Ogres for example trade some of their stuff for something else in order to actually fulfill their role and state beyond just a text description, which is by me a fine example of keeping immersion.
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

Kiara
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Kiara » 31 Oct 2013 21:30

Well yes. A smart and good PVP player will be successful no matter the guild. But if we leave that out of the equation I personally think our guilds in general vary a little too much when it comes to specific abilities meant only for PVP. A few guilds got some useful tricks, but most have nothing at all. When Kiara tried being a big kender (Ogre in kender costume) I think the ogres thing is a good example of a nicely implemented PVP ability. It is useful, but it also has a drawback. But I think we need more guilds with something. Especially guilds who are natural enemies. Then I think its extra important both sides have PVP abilities, not just one side.

Amberlee
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Re: Mages on recoded balance

Post by Amberlee » 31 Oct 2013 22:01

Be successful no matter the guild..
To a certain degree that is correct.
However.. 99% of all Genesis players outright SUCKS in PvP.
Yes that includes you dear Morgul Mages.. You just survive out there on your crazy PvP tools :)
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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