Ranger guild recode ...

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Prokop
Greenhorne
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 Nov 2014 17:29

Re: Ranger guild recode ...

Post by Prokop » 22 Apr 2015 04:04

First, thank you Greneth,

It has been an absolute challenge trying to keep interest up in the Rangers of the North.
Recruiting is one thing, Retaining people is the bigger challenge.

Laurel, Alisa, Mersereau, Iris etc.

Thank you as well.
Middle earth lore is great, but Middle earth is just a small portion of the surface of the donut.

I am all for including other races into the Rangers.
I suspect, that if one were to look at the numbers of good elf vs good human
characters in the census, any guild limited to good human only would be a flop.

As far as non humans in the Rangers of the North, I will refer to the end of the books
where Samwise Gamgee is give a Ranger of the North Brooch for his work. Certainly
Tolkien didn't view RoN membership as Dunadain only.

That said, many people confuse RoN as being the entire blood line and survivors of Arnor,
instead of just a protective force of the chieftan and remaining settlements they really were.

Would I change race? Nope. 22 years of RP, no race change. I'm not suddenly
going to realize "opps, my mistake, I was human all along".

Tolkien also said The Rangers of the North were made of "men-folk" who "ceaselessly patrolled",
so are women allowed?

Nope, In Tolkien's time, War was a man's game. Should we stick to that very
strictly?

As I have already told Gorboth, I am not joining the ladies auxillary or starting to make pies
anytime soon.

Greneth

Re: Ranger guild recode ...

Post by Greneth » 22 Apr 2015 05:39

Erling wrote:Ok. I am a fairly new Ranger, but have been processing this for the day and wanted to put my thoughts down. To clarify, as I am not a known person in the realm, I am a hobbit. I have joined the Rangers, and this character will always be a Ranger. If someone wanted to make an adventuresome hobbit Occ guild it is the only way I could see leaving. Since that won't be happening, the RoN is my best way to role play a Hobbit that is trying to stand against Sauron.

Most here agree that the Rangers are in need of a recode. We also need to never forget that Wizards volunteer here. As such, we need to recognize they deserve to enjoy their time here too. In my mind, barring severe negative impacts on the game, a coding Wizards vision of a project should rule. Again, they are donating their free time to code it.

When I think of my role as a hobbit in the Rangers, I can understand why I wouldn't be in guild leadership. I could even understand why I wouldn't be a member of the Grey company, although I am glad this canon can be loosened given the limited options I have to play a protector of the Shire.

I could even see it as an interesting option to have different sets of titles for humans and non-human. Titles that reflect "full" members versus trusted allies could help set a theme and add to rp. Of course this would have to be thematic only and not mean different skills and abilities otherwise you make a human only guild.

I see this as a way to add some very rich rp to ME, and giving the players the tools to do so.

The unfortunate part of this is what it means for players such as Prokop and Chanel who have dedicated years of their lives to leading the current guild and creating a wonderful home for us. I think this is a necessary "evil" if it is the vision of the working wizard. Changes can be hard sometimes.

So, in summary of a long winded post:
- Thank you Gorboth, for giving your time to Erling's home.
- I think there are thematic changes that can allow the Grey Company to be what it is in ME lore, and still allow non-human to have their occupation be defending the west.
-If anyone wants to code a shire guild based on slings and pies, Erling will leave the Rangers to their human business. :)
I agree with most of this post, here are the issues I have currently.

Yes wizards are volunteers and we should be happy that they spend their time coding for us. However, that doesn't mean go make a I love hello kitty guild just because that tickles the fancy of said wizard and it's what he wishes to do. When the majority of players are against something I feel that unless it majorly impacts the game mechanic wise you should take their wishes into consideration. Because yes while they do volunteer we as players give them something to volunteer for. Without a playerbase there is no one to code for, it's a two way street.

That being said yes the idea is sound and does have merit, however. If this is implemented what it is turning into is a mess. Why? Because you are holding one guild to MUCH higher standards. While allowing a very controversial guild much more leeway, once again. So no I don't find that following the lore is the way to go if you're not going to force the rest of Middle Earth to meet such standards as well. You have a non-human Nazgul named Fluffy, I don't think you can get much further away from the Lore then that. Yet here we are speaking of removing all races except for one racial of humans from leading a guild?

You say it is a necessary evil? A necessary evil is stopping all this botting and scripting crap, a necessary evil is to quit allowing players to grow to insane sizes and continually cater to the power player, a necessary evil is to properly balance herbs, healing in general and the promotion of teaming instead of one myth solo's all. These are things which need to be fixed and damned those who get a black eye in the process. Telling people who during the "Harshest" times this game has gone through when they WERE the guild, they kept it alive, they kept players interested, they "volunteered" their time to teach new/second players.. too bad so sad? This is where the gavel is going to finally come down? Screw what the majority says? No that is not a necessary evil.

I'm a human Ranger, this change does nothing but benefit me and I'm not only against it but I find it really disheartening.

Hektor
Veteran
Posts: 207
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 01:25

Re: Ranger guild recode ...

Post by Hektor » 22 Apr 2015 10:07

Some might argue that Elrohir and Elladan (Elronds sons) played a key role in the leadership of the Rangers of the North, what with their fighting with the Rangers and being part of councelling Aragorn.
(Though, the Rangers of the North were mostly Dunedain chieftain rather than actual formed Companies - as I recall (my ME lore is growing dimmer by the day...).

I would strongly agree though that while Faramir might welcome any aid in Ithilien, the Steward would be less receptive of leadership not tied with Dunedain Lordship in some form.

But also, as have been said in many discussions about in particular Middle-Earth and Krynn themes in Genesis - we are not playing in/by the books, we are playing by Genesis themes founded in those themes.
Lawful evil - conform or die.

Aristos
Veteran
Posts: 239
Joined: 26 May 2013 18:54

Re: Ranger guild recode ...

Post by Aristos » 22 Apr 2015 10:37

I understand how this may affect persons like Prokop, but as for younglings and such, they shouldn't see it as too much of a problem. Just because your race won't allow you to be the leader of a guild doesn't mean you can't be a part of it and play an important role. There are some guilds that make it easier to reach leadership or council status, but there are some who are more elite (either because of RP or other reasons) and in which one wouldn't hold such a high position for a long, long, long time, if ever. Regardless of race.

I think the move is justified, even if it affects players. There might be a workaround for people such as Prokop. Perhaps a special recognition for long time service and proof of leadership qualities, and even finding some Dunadain mixed roots in her ancestry? It would be an exception, just not the usual case for new people joining. It could make for a very special exception, the stuff that legends and songs of old are made of - the times where this or that company was lead by a <insert race here>!

My opinion is just that although these changes to the guilds are introduced from above (wizards), justifications, exceptions, and more of the sort could be solved or treated with via RP.

I'm sure Gorboth would be more open to discussing these things from an RP perspective (Genesis RP, mind you, not LoTR books RP) than from posts in a forum.

When the change does come, if it does, then it should be announced properly beforehand in-game via a board or something, and as such the players could react to these changes by all of its members signing a petition for or against it, penning a scroll to the gods above and presenting their discontent and that, although the rules are coming from above, the subjects don't accept it, or wish for a special exception due to this or that reason.

Sometimes these forums are more of a hindrance than a help to RP. Most of these confrontations would be far more interesting if they took place in-character.

Chanele
Titan
Posts: 540
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 12:39

Re: Ranger guild recode ...

Post by Chanele » 22 Apr 2015 10:40

Hektor wrote:Some might argue that Elrohir and Elladan (Elronds sons) played a key role in the leadership of the Rangers of the North, what with their fighting with the Rangers and being part of councelling Aragorn.
(Though, the Rangers of the North were mostly Dunedain chieftain rather than actual formed Companies - as I recall (my ME lore is growing dimmer by the day...).

I would strongly agree though that while Faramir might welcome any aid in Ithilien, the Steward would be less receptive of leadership not tied with Dunedain Lordship in some form.

But also, as have been said in many discussions about in particular Middle-Earth and Krynn themes in Genesis - we are not playing in/by the books, we are playing by Genesis themes founded in those themes.
I also mentioned them to open up for interpretation.

By the sound of it this is not up for debate right now, we'll soon see the big picture and what it will bring.

Laurel

Re: Ranger guild recode ...

Post by Laurel » 22 Apr 2015 10:45

To put it bluntly: such a change will either force reasonable people (Prokop, Zingil until he still played) to change race in order to keep up their great leadership, or stay in character like they did for decades and allow half-assed alts to lead "their" (spent decades in them!) guilds.

Yep - good idea. Follows the long-term strategy for the game as far I see it.
SS (racial + occ for a race with serious drawbacks in combat) - dead and stinking
Neidar (occ for 1 race with the most serious drawback in a combat stat in the game) - only for the strange ones
ogres (racial + occ with the most serious drawbacks in equipment usage) - how active?
Let's see where we can find those guilds in your census, shall we?

Code: Select all

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          2013 Ranking (Entire Day)  2014 Ranking (Entire Day)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
         1.  Angmar  (1.228)              1.  Mercs   (1.430)
         2.  Mercs   (1.152)              2.^+Rangers (1.101)
         3.  Glads   (1.054)              3.  Monks   (1.038)
         4. Ogres   (0.673)             4.  Angmar  (0.989)
         5.  Mages   (0.663)              5.  DArmy   (0.668)
         6.  Monks   (0.586)              6.  Knights (0.410)
             Knights (0.586)              7.  Calian  (0.301)
         7.  Neidar  (0.565)             8.  Ogres   (0.298)
         8.  DArmy   (0.271)              9.  Neidar  (0.293)
         9.  Rangers (0.217)             10.-!Glads   (0.268)
        10.  Calians (0.163)             11.  Mage    (0.126)
        11.  PoT     (0.054)             12.  ScoP    (0.109)
        12.  Academ. (0.021)             13.  Union   (0.104)
        13.  Union   (0.010)             14.  Cadet   (0.087)
        14.  Cadets  (0.000)             15.  Academ. (0.024)
             Kender  (0.000)             16.  Kender  (0.019)
             ScoP    (0.000)             17.  PoT     (0.019)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                   + Biggest gain  (Rangers at +0.884)
                   - Biggest loss  (Glads at -0.786)
                   ^ Biggest rise  (Rangers up 8 ranks)
                   ! Biggest fall  (Glads down 7 ranks)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  Representation During Peak Hour 
      (21:00 gametime in 2013)        (21:00 gametime in 2014)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        1.  Angmar  (3.177)              1.  Mercs   (2.534)
        2.  Mercs   (2.336)              2. -Angmar  (2.271)
        3.  Rangers (1.655)              3.  Rangers (2.189)
        4.  Monks   (1.625)              4.  Monks   (2.043)
        5.  Glads   (1.472)              5.  DArmy   (1.454)
        6.  Neidar  (1.459)[/b]              6.^+Calian  (1.235)
        7.  DArmy   (1.357)              7.  Ogres   (1.183)
        8.  Knights (1.237)              8.  Glads   (0.813)
        9.  Mages   (1.131)              9.  Knights (0.805)
       10.  Ogres   (0.950)            10.  Mage    (0.739)
       11.  Union   (0.579)             11. !Neidar  (0.783)
       12.  Calian  (0.576)             12.  Union   (0.599)
       13.  PoT     (0.415)             13.  ScoP    (0.506)
       14.  Kender  (0.344)           14.  PoT     (0.416)
       15.  Cadets  (0.275)             15.  Cadet   (0.397)
       16.  ScoP    (0.193)             16.  Academ. (0.295)
       17.  Academ. (0.191)             17.  Kender  (0.109)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                   + Biggest gain  (Calians at +0.655)
                   - Biggest loss  (Angmar at -0.906)
                   ^ Biggest rise  (Calians up 6 ranks)
                  ! Biggest fall  (Neidar down 5 ranks)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Summary:
Race-diversified guilds remain a steady top. Race-bound ... are in decline? Is that your goal with the Rangers now too? Can't believe it is.

Also:
gorboth wrote:I did not do that recode, Greneth. I am doing this one.
Awwwww ... that's an excuse. That's not taking responsibility as the ultimate decision maker of this game.
gorboth wrote:I prefer to avoid total disgrace where it can be avoided. Non-human Nazgul are a full-blown Tolkien meltdown
Not big enough an issue to be dealth with? Just like the quexp modifier happy weeks and lack of a balance strategy for the game? Mittikna however ...
gorboth wrote:and if I were one of them I would take the first boat to Cadu to get one of those orcish bucket-helmets - a fitting crown.
G.
You are the ultimate strategy and decision maker of this game. You can make them do just that. What's stopping you?

Guilds are not in a void - they interact with one another. Some are even coded to counter each other (current Rangers vs old MM). Something wizards might have forgotten (Calian tanks anyone?).

Kvator
Champion
Posts: 645
Joined: 02 Sep 2010 21:25

Re: Ranger guild recode ...

Post by Kvator » 22 Apr 2015 13:01

If there is a need of human-only occ guild I would recommend KoS rather than Rangers. It fits better (noble army with strict code etcs vs guerilla figherts) and it won't hurt any active members as well (I am the only non-human active member, but I would only need to leave my racial guild to be proper human, so no big deal). It's pretty hard for me to imagine dwarven KoS (especially when dwarves have guild designed for them in Krynn anyway). Maybe it could be also a reason to buff us a bit afterwards :D

Aristos
Veteran
Posts: 239
Joined: 26 May 2013 18:54

Re: Ranger guild recode ...

Post by Aristos » 22 Apr 2015 13:08

Kvator wrote:If there is a need of human-only occ guild I would recommend KoS rather than Rangers. It fits better (noble army with strict code etcs vs guerilla figherts) and it won't hurt any active members as well (I am the only non-human active member, but I would only need to leave my racial guild to be proper human, so no big deal). It's pretty hard for me to imagine dwarven KoS (especially when dwarves have guild designed for them in Krynn anyway). Maybe it could be also a reason to buff us a bit afterwards :D
AFAIK we're not talking about a human-only occ guild. The idea is that only humans can reach a council position.

Kvator
Champion
Posts: 645
Joined: 02 Sep 2010 21:25

Re: Ranger guild recode ...

Post by Kvator » 22 Apr 2015 13:16

human-heavy, human-only whatever :P (anyway I don't like knight-dwarves :P)

Mortis

Re: Ranger guild recode ...

Post by Mortis » 22 Apr 2015 13:32

Prokop wrote:I suspect, that if one were to look at the numbers of good elf vs good human
characters in the census, any guild limited to good human only would be a flop.
This. Especially since so many newbies are elves.

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