Khiraa

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nils
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Khiraa

Post by nils » 30 Oct 2016 21:53

So I caught up on Gorboth's necromancer concept, and while doing so I read
gorboth wrote:Recoding the Khiraa was my original plan. The closer I looked at the Khiraa code, I realized that they don't need to be recoded. They are already a very fully realized concept, simply one that never was balanced properly for Genesis. My ideas are wildly different from those that made Khiraa special, and to open my guild with the name "Khiraa" would be an insult to those who loved Khiraa.

G.
How I read it:

Khiraa is vastly different from the planned necromancers.
Khiraa is a finished guild that only needs a bit of tinkering to get it balanced.
There are people who love Khiraa.

So, can you please explain to me like you would a child: Why isn't Khiraa open?
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

Dread
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Re: Khiraa

Post by Dread » 30 Oct 2016 21:59

Khiraa was a lot of fun, here's hoping you are on to something. I desperately need something to grab my interest.

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Cherek
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Re: Khiraa

Post by Cherek » 31 Oct 2016 05:50

Nils: Opening, or re-opening a guild means that:

- A wizard or wizard(s) must be willing to do the work needed.
- The admin must think it's a good idea and allow the wizard(s) to work on it.
- The balance team must review it and approve it.

When it comes to Khiraa, a while back two wizards were interested in dusting off Khiraa, and they came to me and asked. We discussed it, and I shared my opinion that I do not think the game is in a dire need for neither another evil melee guild or another evil caster guild (Khiraa had two branches), and that if they wanted to add a guild to the game, or re-open / fix an old one, there are other guilds that need the attention more. And that the game needs more.

For example there are a number of occupational guilds still needing a recode, and laymans too. And if it's anything we need when it comes to new guilds or re-opens, we need more goodie options for spellcasters. We already have no less than 4 evil-aligned melee guilds, all recoded, and a number of neutral options for evil melee players. The evil vs goodie ratio when it comes to caster guilds is already 2 to 1, with 1 additional evil caster guild be worked on.

So... after talking about it we all agreed that it was probably better to focus their energy on something we need more.

So I guess you can blame me!

But don't get me wrong, I really liked the Khiraa concept, I was actually an applicant, about to join, when they closed. And since I could not be a death knight, I decided a regular living knight would do. So yeah, if it would make sense to open Khiraa I would be all for it, but it doesn't. For example opening SoHM makes sense, since it provides an option for casters of any align, something Genesis has been lacking a long time. Recoding SS and/or Rangers make sense since the goodie melee guilds have had a pretty low popularity among wizards for several years, and they need some love to balance things out and become more attractive options again. However, opening Khiraa does not make sense to me right now, not because it's a bad guild, or because it's not needed, but there are other things we need MORE right now.

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Arman
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Re: Khiraa

Post by Arman » 31 Oct 2016 13:49

nils wrote:So I caught up on Gorboth's necromancer concept, and while doing so I read
gorboth wrote:Recoding the Khiraa was my original plan. The closer I looked at the Khiraa code, I realized that they don't need to be recoded. They are already a very fully realized concept, simply one that never was balanced properly for Genesis. My ideas are wildly different from those that made Khiraa special, and to open my guild with the name "Khiraa" would be an insult to those who loved Khiraa.

G.
How I read it:

Khiraa is vastly different from the planned necromancers.
Khiraa is a finished guild that only needs a bit of tinkering to get it balanced.
There are people who love Khiraa.

So, can you please explain to me like you would a child: Why isn't Khiraa open?
Khiraa would need to be moved over to the new magic system too. That takes a bit of work.

Dread
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Re: Khiraa

Post by Dread » 31 Oct 2016 16:26

Cherek wrote:Nils: Opening, or re-opening a guild means that:

- A wizard or wizard(s) must be willing to do the work needed.
- The admin must think it's a good idea and allow the wizard(s) to work on it.
- The balance team must review it and approve it.

When it comes to Khiraa, a while back two wizards were interested in dusting off Khiraa, and they came to me and asked. We discussed it, and I shared my opinion that I do not think the game is in a dire need for neither another evil melee guild or another evil caster guild (Khiraa had two branches), and that if they wanted to add a guild to the game, or re-open / fix an old one, there are other guilds that need the attention more. And that the game needs more.

For example there are a number of occupational guilds still needing a recode, and laymans too. And if it's anything we need when it comes to new guilds or re-opens, we need more goodie options for spellcasters. We already have no less than 4 evil-aligned melee guilds, all recoded, and a number of neutral options for evil melee players. The evil vs goodie ratio when it comes to caster guilds is already 2 to 1, with 1 additional evil caster guild be worked on.

So... after talking about it we all agreed that it was probably better to focus their energy on something we need more.

So I guess you can blame me!

But don't get me wrong, I really liked the Khiraa concept, I was actually an applicant, about to join, when they closed. And since I could not be a death knight, I decided a regular living knight would do. So yeah, if it would make sense to open Khiraa I would be all for it, but it doesn't. For example opening SoHM makes sense, since it provides an option for casters of any align, something Genesis has been lacking a long time. Recoding SS and/or Rangers make sense since the goodie melee guilds have had a pretty low popularity among wizards for several years, and they need some love to balance things out and become more attractive options again. However, opening Khiraa does not make sense to me right now, not because it's a bad guild, or because it's not needed, but there are other things we need MORE right now.
The problem I have with this philosophy is very simple. Since you discouraged whomever it was that wanted to mess with Khiraa, how many of those guilds that 'need help' have been recoded? 0? It's gotta be pretty close to 0. Just a quick glance at the forums shows threads going back years about the recoding status of guilds. I understand that there are guilds that need help desperately. I would LOVE to see the Rangers finally recoded. I have never been a member of that guild, that I remember, but I have always found it interesting. I have had a lot of interaction with them in days long past and have always thought they were very cool. However, pushing someone off something that interests/intrigues them seems like a bad policy.

I have heard this numbers argument against certain guilds being worked on or opened many times, and I have to say it confuses me. What does the number of evil/good guilds have to do with anything? What does it matter? While I understand the 'we are underrepresented!!!' view of some good players, I don't see its validity. The standard defense of the coding team has always been if you want it, wiz and code it yourself! What happened to that? Seems awfully fitting in this case as well.

Its just an opinion, but you seem to have an antiquated notion of 'need'. Do we need more good guilds done because of balance? What balance? Why? Are we suffering from the misconception that PVP would pick right back up and be fun again if only there were a couple more good guilds? I hope not, as that massively glosses over the issues with PVP.

All this being said, please don't view this as an indictment. Just trying to have discussion and perhaps provide some food for thought.

P.S. I did see your post Arman, so I do know that Khiraa is not just a open it up and call it good thing. However, it seems to me that interest has got to be the primary motivation for a freely provided service such as what you and the other wizards so generously provide.

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Cherek
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Re: Khiraa

Post by Cherek » 31 Oct 2016 16:56

Dread: The wizards in question have both worked on recoding guilds since then. We had this talk earlier this year so not long ago and recoding guilds is not something that goes quickly. Opening up Khiraa is likely not something that would have been a quick and easy project either.

And no, for PVP to be a big part of the game again a lot more is needed than recoding a couple of goodie guilds, I am no _that_ naive.:) However I think the game should offer fairly equal options for both good and evil players, and if it starts to lean too much against one side, the game also risks being very one-sided in every aspect, both PVE, PVP and RP. We could of course argue back and forth on this, and I respect that you have another opinion, but I really think the game will be the most fun if we try to balance it as best we can, and I also think there is a big risk with having too many occupational guilds in total as well.

If we added every guild every wizard had ever wanted to create, we'd probably have one guild for each player by now... and I am not joking, "I want to code X guild" is often something new wizards want to do, and especially evil guilds are for some reason extra popular to create, but there is a limit to the amount of occupation guilds we can have. We would probably have reached 100+ guilds if everyone who ever wanted to create one had done so.

In my opinion, more important than the amount of guilds, is the quality and popularity of our guilds, and I think our first priority should be to make all our current guilds attractive options, and do our best to make sure all our current guilds have a number of active members at all times, which is something we have struggled with for some time now. It's improving of course with the player numbers we have today compared to a few years ago, but there's still a lot of room in many of our guilds. Being part of an active guild gives you a sense of community, and hopefully helps players want to keep playing Genesis. In many guilds it also encourages RP, both within the guild, and against other guilds. So yeah, I think active guilds and a reasonable balance between good, evil and neutral options is good for a lot of things.

Finally, "Wiz and code it yourself" is a saying, and a true one too. It's generally a good idea to become a wizard if you want to add something specific to the game, and that's probably the biggest chance you have of getting your vision implemented into the game. However, it has never meant you can wiz and code _anything_ you want. It still needs to be approved by the admin and/or a liege, and that has to my knowledge always been the case. Most ideas we do approve though, but if we never denied any project the game would probably be pretty chaotic.

Dread
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Re: Khiraa

Post by Dread » 31 Oct 2016 17:38

Cherek wrote:And no, for PVP to be a big part of the game again a lot more is needed than recoding a couple of goodie guilds, I am no _that_ naive.:) However I think the game should offer fairly equal options for both good and evil players, and if it starts to lean too much against one side, the game also risks being very one-sided in every aspect, both PVE, PVP and RP. We could of course argue back and forth on this, and I respect that you have another opinion, but I really think the game will be the most fun if we try to balance it as best we can, and I also think there is a big risk with having too many occupational guilds in total as well.
Perhaps I am disillusioned but as far as I can tell, we are already there, and have been for years. It's possible that it is a good thing everyone just grinds their brains out and doesn't interact/RP much, because I think if a few of the evil guilds united the good side would have very little chance. ;) Having balance would be great! However, I am forced to recall an old adage from my pappy: If you wish in one hand and .... oh nevermind.
Cherek wrote:In my opinion, more important than the amount of guilds, is the quality and popularity of our guilds, and I think our first priority should be to make all our current guilds attractive options, and do our best to make sure all our current guilds have a number of active members at all times, which is something we have struggled with for some time now. It's improving of course with the player numbers we have today compared to a few years ago, but there's still a lot of room in many of our guilds. Being part of an active guild gives you a sense of community, and hopefully helps players want to keep playing Genesis. In many guilds it also encourages RP, both within the guild, and against other guilds. So yeah, I think active guilds and a reasonable balance between good, evil and neutral options is good for a lot of things.
Making all of the current guilds attractive is certainly a laudable goal, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt on whether it is realistic. However, on what time frame? We will have to agree to disagree on the sense of community. I have stated my opinion on this in other threads, so I won't expound upon it here, but group+grind+ignore all else sure seems to be the prevalent culture these days.
Cherek wrote:Finally, "Wiz and code it yourself" is a saying, and a true one too. It's generally a good idea to become a wizard if you want to add something specific to the game, and that's probably the biggest chance you have of getting your vision implemented into the game. However, it has never meant you can wiz and code _anything_ you want. It still needs to be approved by the admin and/or a liege, and that has to my knowledge always been the case. Most ideas we do approve though, but if we never denied any project the game would probably be pretty chaotic.
I will admit I was being a tad facetious here. It is fun to poke and prod occasionally, and such an obvious misstatement as 'wiz and code it yourself!' is an easy target. Clearly there has to be an approval process, and just as clearly there are things that need done for the betterment of the game that should take precedence. So, let's just agree that the the ole wizard 1-liner defense needs to be properly applied, and perhaps not as ubiquitous as it has been in the past.

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nils
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Re: Khiraa

Post by nils » 31 Oct 2016 20:16

Ok, Cherek, thank you for your response and consider yourself blamed. :)

First of all, let's adress the evil vs good melee-issue.
Evil: BDA/RDA, AA
Good: Neidar, Knights, Calia, Rangers
Neutral: SU, DO, Mercs, Glads, Ogres (Yes, while ogres are maybe inherently evil, the guild is technically neutral).

Which two evil guilds am I missing? (Yes, two, I view BDA/RDA to be two factions of the same guild - albeit one is superior to the other, but that's topic of a different discussion).

The way I see it, the "goodies" are the majority, and guild-by-guild-balance there's definitely a real need for the Death Knight branch of the Khiraa. The need for a Lichpriest branch, however, is debatable. Magic guilds have always been inherently difficult to balance in Genesis, and I feel as if there's always been an understanding here.

Firstly, the caster guilds can always off any one player or npc with a few nukes or poison. The trade off is that it drains so much resources that there's no chance a caster can "nuke for progress", making it (really) difficult to grind.

Secondly, (truly sorry guys, I invoke a cliche) great power comes with great responsibility. Many victims of the morgul mages might disagree, but I'm convinced the Tower does not go out on a killing spree "for fun". Players who've been murdered by a mage deserved it, somehow.

So why this rambling? Well, first of all the Khiraa cannot exist without the Lichpriests, and vice versa. This "synergy" is not only the trademark of the guild, it is perfect for balancing against the elemental force that's building on the good side, where several guilds complement each other perfectly. The means may differ, the end remains the same. I simply don't agree with the fact that there's no room for the Khiraa in Genesis. I would go so far as to claim it desperately needs it! It makes perfect sense!

The wizard community always claimed "you can't force a wizard to work on something he or she doesn't want to do". Now, you said two wizards came to you and asked to work on an a previously (and might I add - epic) guild and you said the game didn't need it. I am appalled. Truly.

While I agree there definitely are guilds and/or other aspects of the game that require attention, I simply abhor that other guilds are held hostage (see conflict of interest in ME, and how AA is completely useless and everybody knows it) for this reason. It is, after all, free work that needs internal motivation for it to be done.

As for popularity of current guilds - what about the neutral ones? Do we really need both gladiators AND mercenaries? While ogres are fun, their mechanics promote grinding at a certain speed to maintain/gain power - do we really need a guild that promotes the very opposite of what everyone agrees is the one of the main problems in genesis? - Would closing down one or more of the neutral ones force more players to "pick a side"? Just a thought.

Lastly, the biggest "problem", good aligned casters/magic users. Yes, I totally agree they need options. There was once a "Wizards of High Sorcery" which catered to all alignments. Do they have to cater to evil? Maybe good and neutral is enough? I don't know enough about the guilds' concept to have an opinion though.

Could, let's say, the two developers who volunteered to reboot Khiraa enter an agreement to work on WoHS first, then Khiraa?
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

Kvator
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Re: Khiraa

Post by Kvator » 31 Oct 2016 20:29

if you go 'technically'* then calia, neidar and AA are neutral as well lol
and guild that will serve as first step for WOHS is being developed atm if u didn't know :)

and we need this neutral wizard guild badly....
just like we need (my opinion ofc) playable (at all) archers :)

* another technical thing - goodie ranger can't team with holy ogre.....you ask why? i rly don't know :)
Last edited by Kvator on 31 Oct 2016 20:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Cherek
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Re: Khiraa

Post by Cherek » 31 Oct 2016 21:15

nils wrote: The way I see it, the "goodies" are the majority, and guild-by-guild-balance there's definitely a real need for the Death Knight branch of the Khiraa. The need for a Lichpriest branch, however, is debatable. Magic guilds have always been inherently difficult to balance in Genesis, and I feel as if there's always been an understanding here.
Well it depends on how you count, and which guilds you include in which category of course. And if we count recoded guilds only or not. But like I said in my last paragraph, I don't think Khiraa is a bad idea in general, I just feel we need other things _more_. I did not say the melee balance is perfect, I said there are already a number of melee options for evils so another one isn't what we need the most guild-wise right now. Which ones, both goodie and evil, are viable power-wise or not is of course another discussion, and for another thread.
nils wrote: The wizard community always claimed "you can't force a wizard to work on something he or she doesn't want to do". Now, you said two wizards came to you and asked to work on an a previously (and might I add - epic) guild and you said the game didn't need it. I am appalled. Truly.
No you cant force anyone to work on something they don't want to. And I never said I did. I said we had a discussion about it, with different arguments, then we ALL agreed on that there are other things that needed work more than to dig up an old guild. I am quite sure both wizards currently work on things they want to work on. You make it sound like I am forcing wizards to work on things they don't want to work on, and I am pretty sure all current wizards can vouch that is not the case, and it won't ever be. But it's also my job to say no to some projects, it does not happen often, but sometimes I do. If anyone could work on anything at any time, there would be little need for an admin at all..?
nils wrote: While I agree there definitely are guilds and/or other aspects of the game that require attention, I simply abhor that other guilds are held hostage (see conflict of interest in ME, and how AA is completely useless and everybody knows it) for this reason. It is, after all, free work that needs internal motivation for it to be done.

As for popularity of current guilds - what about the neutral ones? Do we really need both gladiators AND mercenaries? While ogres are fun, their mechanics promote grinding at a certain speed to maintain/gain power - do we really need a guild that promotes the very opposite of what everyone agrees is the one of the main problems in genesis? - Would closing down one or more of the neutral ones force more players to "pick a side"? Just a thought.
As for your statement about Middle Earth. We talked about this in private and I explained things to you when you had concerns. But I'll say it again, no guild is held hostage by anyone, and if the AA players are having problems and are not happy, Middle Earth has a very active liege to contact.

Could we close other guilds to make room for new / old-new ones? Or close neutral ones to make people pick a side? Sure. But as you know closing down guilds is an ugly business and before we ever do something like that we need to be REALLY sure it's a good idea. We've discussed this in a number of threads before, and as with anything there's arguments both for and against. Right now we're rather focusing on making the not so popular and weak guilds more popular and stronger, instead of closing anything.

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