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Site Admin
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 01:14
Posts: 305
Zugzug wrote:
That last sentence just makes me want to put a palm to the face, btw.

I'm not saying there won't be guilds which are as good. I'm sure there will turn up a copy or three of the EW layman setup.

17 Jan 2018 16:11
Rising Hero
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Joined: 16 Nov 2014 23:10
Posts: 353
Zugzug wrote:

Wow. Just wow.

We all know it, of course (that EW is insanely, really, truly, the "best" option in terms of a powerplayer build) - and that it's "for friends only". It's nice to see wizards admitting it though openly like this.

That last sentence just makes me want to put a palm to the face, btw.

Should i ask when i became friends with Draugor? Or do you see the irony in your answer.

Zugzug wrote:
As far your preference (highlighted above in bold) - I agree (as I stated above) - let's petition for an evil-only layman guild that would surpass some occupational guilds in power, and have a nice setting/theme/feeling to get drawn into. Or do you only believe those things when they are on "your side"?

Make EW good-aligned and create an evil copy. Its an option. And no, im not against it. It could easily become quite fun.
Call them the "free" worshippers. Hold them true to the rules of Elemental worship though, if you want to do that. Not true to the rule of "I WANT TO GRIND" Attacks between evil/good should be free of course.

Zugzug wrote:
After all, think about how long an imbalanced evil-only guild would survive without nerfs in Genesis ;)

Pretty sure Morgul Mages are still around. I know, they're nerfed now.... But that took a while, didn't it ?
Pretty sure good-aligned guilds were nerfed as well, but hey... lets not argue over the past, when focusing on the future!.

Zugzug wrote:
If Diri started to tell Zugzug whom he can and cannot team with, that conversation would end very quickly. Fortunately for Zugzug, he values his OCC guild much more than his layman

This time the argument was started because people doesn't feel like you do. I choose the opposite way, where my layman was more defining for my character than my OCC. Point is we both made a choice. Those complaining about "controlling other guilds" do so because they havent made that choice.

BTW missed a part of Armans questioning, so did a edit on my first answer..Its here too
Arman wrote:
So I throw it out to you all, am I reading the situation correctly? And if so to what extent? Is this likely to be resolved by more layman options? Or is there a feeling that layman magic guilds are too powerful?

Some of the matter will be resolved with more laymans.
Since there are no recoded magic laymans than EW, its hard to answer. I think the tax will balance it out, but combinations of guilds could create something very nasty.

17 Jan 2018 17:15
Rising Hero

Joined: 06 Jul 2011 22:24
Posts: 349
A free to join magic layman(s) with powers on par with EW, but not a branch of an occ guild like EW, should solve the problem.
So Warlocks or recoded Minstrels could be it.

17 Jan 2018 18:23

Joined: 23 Nov 2017 03:45
Posts: 95
I think part of the problem is that the most popular non-magic laymen guilds are too simplistic.

Blademaster have one attack, that is it. their emotes aren't that good, seemly they could add thistle to their swords but that was removed (instead you can change your sword to a non-magical sleek sword, it kinda suck except for some specific swords), and their emotes aren't interesting, and have no guild hall, or nothing else much interesting. The cities where they are involved are all semi abandoned, one of them you could not even enter the pub for several months because some file load error.

Thornlin militia you have one attack, evade, buggy autoimpale, buggy join code, non-enforced guild rules, and people use it as a "blademaster for polearms", thornlin members rarely bother defending their area or caring about their theme, and their city and guild hall have no interesting features.

AA I don't know much to comment, but seemly is used primarily as evil tank guild.

thieves suck.

tricksters suck even more than thieves.

archers there is a giant thread about them, but basically they suck too, and the fact you can't use merc special with them ensure they remain not very useful, and I believe their city also is very boring.


in short, what the physical lay guilds do, is mostly add physical DPS, that on high levels is in a way very important, but also as enemies (including players) get bigger, they can use heavy armour easily, since high protection high-weight armour is not rare.

they have no fun theme thing, no RP stuff, no cool guild area facilities (like forges, decent themed-gear, heraldry, libraries, whatever), often lacking in emotes, and no commands except one attack and maybe one defense.

Exception seemly is pirates and templars, that are not popular, but seemly work reasonably well overall.


problem is not just lack of caid, although taht is part of it too, a theoretical offensive caster guild in the new system, would be able to easily out-DPS the blademasters or thornlins when it matters, for example casting offensive spells of uncommon elements that noone resists.

the problem is the physical guilds are utterly boring, when I was merc+bm all it was useful for was fast solo grinding on my mid-level range, using two commands, that I left on trigger all the time, there is no reason to NOT use the commands as soon as possible, so the guilds you even forgot they were there, and there was no battle strategy or tactics, it was purely a matter o how high is your level, enemy you can't defeat now? get stronger, that was it.

and RPwise those guilds are boring too.


what I saw in some other games to make physical guilds interesting, is give them some commands that are helpful and give some tactical flexibility and aid in inter-guild RP and interaction. For example one of them the main physical guild had a command to make torches, a war cry command that used mana but boosted the whole team weapon skills (all of them) and defence skill slightly (non-stacking, two persons couldn't give further increases), and a command that had cooldown and also used mana, that had a slight change of making enemies attacking them (so useful for tanking when with mages).

17 Jan 2018 18:32
Rising Hero

Joined: 06 Jul 2011 22:24
Posts: 349
Let there be simplistic AND more complicated choices.
One may not want to bother with gathering resources for spells/prayers and then managing them.
For such a person one special attack and a few emotes is the best choice.

The problem is there is only ONE recoded/new system magic layman... which is not available to all. So everyone is equal but some are better...

By the way, it would be handy if info on spells/prayers from new magic system would be sent by gmcp.
Same goes for fighter guilds attacks/utilities.

17 Jan 2018 18:45
Great Adventurer

Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55
Posts: 166
I dont know how many years I can preach the same thing and it continually be ignored.

The three things you can not do when balancing.

1. You can not simply raise the tax and call it good when balancing power - Mobs have gotten bigger, people run more scripts this line of thinking is obsolete. I'll take an "I win" button for 99% tax, lets make it happen.

2. You can not ignore the versatility aspect when balancing power - Rock, Paper, Scissors or Damage, Tanking, Supportive. If a guild has Superior Damage they cannot have Tanking or Supportive. If a guild has Damage and Defence you have to water both down and no Supportive. Some guilds get all fucking three with a swiss army knife that contains a rocket launcher, hyper beam and a whistle that calls sharks with lasers on their heads. We have gotten to the point where we forget that this game is supposed to be team-based and not built around being able to solo everything possible.

3. You can not use roleplay as a viable excuse for balancing power - Because this game is NOT roleplay enforced which means that people don't have to behave in any sort of way. Roleplay is subjective in terms of if its any good or not anyways. If I see someone with shitty roleplay but they get a guild with a "Nuke" special... that doesn't quite add up. Lets not even get into the massive amounts of OOC abuse, secrets, friends/clicks that generally follow the "RP Guilds".

Quit making guilds that allow the above and people won't bitch about it.

17 Jan 2018 19:33

Joined: 27 Nov 2013 01:34
Posts: 105
Frickin sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their frickin heads!?!?


17 Jan 2018 20:41
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54
Posts: 771
Etanukar wrote:
Frickin sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their frickin heads!?!?



Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

17 Jan 2018 20:48
Rising Hero

Joined: 27 Jun 2011 13:20
Posts: 371
Etanukar wrote:
Frickin sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their frickin heads!?!?


Doh, that already exists, heard they live in a tower of some kind!!!

17 Jan 2018 20:54

Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14
Posts: 1721
Me, mages arent that OP anymore, stupidly easy to get resistances for tbh, wich is a gigantic weakspot tbh

17 Jan 2018 21:00
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