Genesis Forums

So Gorboth and I have had a few conversations of late on guilds. The primary concern is around redundancy... creating new guilds (particularly occupational) that basically cannibalise a play style that another guild has. At one point we were discussing not allowing any more occupational guilds, however we thought we'd do a bit of a review of what we have on offer first and see how it all balances out.

Identify where are the holes in class types, or where the experience is lacking for certain alignments / styles / races.

So this is how it looks. None of it is secret, as any of you can pull this information together yourselves, however I found it interesting, in particular the gaps. I imagine wizards wanting endorsement for new guilds would be wise to look at what the game doesn't offer at the moment for players!

*edited based on comments below*

GUILDS OF GENESIS:

CLERIC GUILD TYPE:

Good aligned:
Holy Order of the Stars (layman)
Heralds of the Valar (layman)

Elemental Clerics of Calia (occupational)

Neutral / unaligned:
Elemental Seekers of Calia / Elemental Worshippers of Calia (layman)
The August Order of Minstrels (layman)

Evil aligned:
Priests of Takhisis (occupational)
Necromancers of Chemosh (occupational)

FIGHTER GUILD TYPE:

Good aligned:
Thornlin Militia (layman)
Shieldbearers of Iron Delving (layman)

Dwarven Warriors of the Neidar Clan (occupational)
Calian warrior's guild (occupational)
Solamnian Knights (occupational)

Neutral (on balance) / unaligned:
Pirate of the Bloodsea (layman)
Blademasters of Khalakhor (layman)
Bloodsea Minotaurs (layman)
Cadets of Gelan (layman)
Order of the Dragon (layman)

Union of the Warriors of Shadow (occupational)
Gladiator guild (occupational)
Army of Darkness (occupational)
Patrol Guild of Silverdell (occupational)
Order of the Dragon (occupational)
Free Mercenary Guild (occupational)

Evil aligned:
Templars of Takhisis (layman)
Angmar Army (layman)

Dragonarmy (occupational)
Angmar Army (occupational)

MAGIC GUILD TYPE:

Good aligned:
*none*

Neutral (on balance) / unaligned:
Academy of Elemental Arts (layman)
Wizards of High Sorcery (occupational)
School of High Magic (occupational)

Evil aligned:
Necromancers Of Vile Darkness / Warlocks of Faerun (layman)
Morgul Mages (occupational)

RANGER GUILD TYPE:

Good aligned:
Rangers of the Westlands (occupational)

Neutral (on balance) / unaligned:
Tricksters (layman)
Ansalon Elvish Archers (layman)

Ansalon Elvish Archers (occupational)

Evil aligned:
*none*

THIEF GUILD TYPE:

Good aligned:
Secret Society of Uncle Trapspringer (occupational)

Neutral (on balance) / unaligned:
*none*

Evil aligned:
Cabal of Hiddukel (layman)

RACIAL GUILDS:

Gnomish Inventors (gnome)

Rockfriend guild (dwarf)

Adventuresome Hobbits Guild (hobbit)
Halflings of Faerun (hobbit)

Thanar race guild (human)
Traveller guild (human)
Dunedain (human)
Clans of Khalakhor (human)

Eil-Galaith (human / elf)
Drow of Underdark (elf)
Noldor of Imladris (elf)
Wild Elves Guild (elf)

Orcs of Middle Earth (elf / goblin)
Red Fang Guild (goblin)
Grunts guild (goblin)

Krynn race guild (all except gnome)
Amazon racial guild (all female)

Initial observations:

Gnome racial guild options are terrible! Only the Tinkers?

Ranger and thief guild styles are really under-represented.

I didn't include craft guilds in the list... but that is an aspect of the game I reckon could really be expanded upon. I'd personally love to see a Telberin Alchemist craft guild at some point!

Overall we are really light on with layman options.

Thoughts?

Minstrels are neutral btw

Quite an impressive list.
Have you had an discussions on how the interaction between the different play styles should be? What basic skills each type should have as an minimum.
Elemental Seekers of Calia / Elemental Worshippers of Calia (layman) They are neutral,- last i looked anyway.

First off, it's good to actually see EW in the goodies' list, people seem to place them as neutral and it always felt iffy to me (I'm not a baddie whining, just a goodie with observations). Quite interested to see if that's actually the consensus. On that account, maybe we should have weekly guild discussions where we flamerrrrmmm communicate our thoughts on guilds and maybe provide with QoL or otherwise improvements to RP and maybe even mechanics.

• On Cleric guilds, there don't seem to be evil cleric laymans. I haven't been a baddie enough to know if something actually covers that niche but it sure seems that way.

• There's an eye-poking gap on good mages. SoHM will produce some when they get their tower inhabited, but 1/3 of a certain guild is not enough to cover such an important -or any, really- category. Actually the neutral mages are not represented at all as well. I am not sure what's the versatility planned for WoHM but it would have to be awesome to cover those 2 niches with a single guild. In Wizards I trust though ( :O ). (I actually think the neutral ones are the coolest btw, endorsements for a hype train?)

• Nature stuff! A good chance for a non-evil mage guild would be freaking druids. On that subject, the in-progress pet guild would be a good addition as well.


• Physical-focused laymans (Blademasters, Shieldbearers, Thornlin, Pirates, Monks, idk about the evil ones, missing something else?) seem quite reduntant in the sense that none of them seem enough to make you feel like you are in a guild. I would prefer having a combat layman guild (or a cooperative of trainers working in a way akin to how mercenaries' guru quest works) where you focus your training on a special attack with one kind of weapon or a shield and can change around for a hefty cost. Maybe Gelan trainees that got out of Alpha testing and are awesome kind of thing. Now RP/fluff is getting cut through that, so give players the option to align themselves with guilds like Shieldbearers or Thornlin. You would be checked on your currect connections (full intro) and possibly alignment if thus is thought as a requirement. Possibly, you would have to complete a group of quests in the area to have proven yourself worthy of wearing the "guild-friend-word" insignia.

• Thieves are in trouble in general, as are Rangers (even if less so). I don't get how you can make thievery viable as a gameplay mechanic as part of a guild (or alliance of any kind RP-wise). If you fought a war, you would try to infiltrate and steal an artifact or assassinate someone (and that goes for both goodies and baddies in my view). That's quite impossible since you just can't get inside many guildhalls if you aren't a member. On the other hand, that whole scouting/infiltrating thing would be quite close to a Ranger's niche as well. I find it quite possible to merge those 2, with less on the actual cutpurse feature (it's kind of a fluffless thing, maybe enough for a craft guild) and more on the "I am messing up with my enemies' resources". Giving access to enemy guildhalls for a certain scout/infiltration guild is a possibility that's partly world-breaking (it's the end of the world as we know it) unless it's activated only while in war and is of course counterable with guard duties and guild cooperation. Otherwise stealth/hide, a special working with ideally both ranged and melee weapons for damage out of stealth (also going in and out of sight/battle while the others are distracting the enemy to return with another devastating blow), high tracking skills and possibly lockpicking or gadget handling... there are so many options.

To correct you.
Morgul Mages are a Clerical type of guild.
They receive powers from a deity.


You're welcome

I am BDA and EW...

So, EW is not a goodie guild, even if it doesn't have many evil members.
It is anti-undead/pro-life, if anything.

Drazson wrote: • On Cleric guilds, there don't seem to be evil cleric laymans. I haven't been a baddie enough to know if something actually covers that niche but it sure seems that way.

• There's an eye-poking gap on good mages.

I reckon with the magic guilds, good aligned ones have leaned towards the clerical while evil ones have more leaned towards the arcane. There is a clear lack of layman evil clerical options.

Drazson wrote: • Nature stuff! A good chance for a non-evil mage guild would be freaking druids. On that subject, the in-progress pet guild would be a good addition as well.

A druid guild would be cool. The ability to polymorph does actually exist so there is the real possibility for druidic animalform or lycanthropy (I even had a spell coded using it for the WoHS!), but the code is buggy and hasn't been properly balanced... would need some serious work from a savvy coder for this to be introduced into the game.

Drazson wrote: • Thieves are in trouble in general, as are Rangers (even if less so).

I think a proper occupational thieves or assassins guild using the re-coded backstab could be the neutral / evil equivalent to the Calian's swarm. Not sure how many people have tried the new code, but backstab is designed to be quite effective in teams when you aren't taking hits.

Rangers as a guild style have an identity crisis.. being a jack-of-all-trades guild in Genesis essentially means you are effectively running at the effectiveness of a couple of layman guilds. Rangers of the Westlands are probably the guild most in need of some love and attention at the moment. The elven archers, Carnak has been working on a re-code to re-position it as more a genuine guild option with some unique play elements... it is getting there! The hope it will be more fun than novelty.

Thalric wrote:It is anti-undead/pro-life, if anything.

I've had lengthy conversations with Clerics and Worshippers regarding that, I suggest everyone took the chance to do the same. A very interesting topic. I do believe they belong in the goodies' list.

Thalric wrote:I am BDA and EW...

So, EW is not a goodie guild, even if it doesn't have many evil members.
It is anti-undead/pro-life, if anything.

Thanks, corrected.