Guilds of Genesis

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 522
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Arman » 21 Jul 2018 01:41

Amberlee wrote:We disagree on one of the fundamental things here Arman.
In my opinion thematics is NOT king.
Functionability is king.

Here is why.
People will go for the better options... BECAUSE if they don't they end up getting ganked by opposing sides without a fighting chance.
Yes Layman guilds ARE that important.

I would love to say this is a RP game above all, but unfortunately it's not.
This is a PvE/PvP game that has a good RP community, and myself I count myself as one of the more dedicated RPers.
In this game where we lose so much time and work if we get killed, why would we ever choose a lesser option?
Why would these lesser options even be there?
That's a waste of both our time and your time.
We agree to disagree then.

Fundamentally there is no functional balance for pvp in the game at all... of all the elements in the game that are remotely balanced for pvp it is guilds. Which doesn't say much, however there are at least defined boundaries.

Race stat differences, weapon restrictions and prevalence, size disparity combined with guild variability means there isn't ever going to be remotely a fair playing field in pvp.

For fairness in pvp all that needs to be equalised. For that to happen you basically need to code a new game that isn't Genesis.

People can min/max if they want. But the guilds we want to code should provide variety and choice dependent on the play style preference of the player. All our principles are based around that... otherwise why should layman magic guilds get 40% more combat aid over combat layman guilds? To facilitate the thematics of a mage class. Which is why drawbacks are important for those guilds.
Amberlee wrote: Now I think we all can agree that Heralds were a horrible option before the recode.
A point to ponder would be to perhaps ask yourself WHY would some of the longtime members there express they would really just go back to having the old powers compared to how unplayable they are now?
Perhaps talk to some of those longtime members and get their opinion on it instead of railroading changes that hinders the gameplay to the degree the guild becomes undesireable again.
I haven't had any complaints with the exception of how the hortale spell works. Only thanks and praise. Considering the old guild essentially offered nothing except a stop-fight spell that is being phased out of the game, I imagine they really liked that spell.

Happy for them to contact me if they have other issues. My mailbox is always open.
Amberlee wrote: Perhaps talk to some of those longtime members and get their opinion on it instead of railroading changes that hinders the gameplay to the degree the guild becomes undesireable again.
This just reads to me of someone who wants more cake and is outraged that there is a calorie cost. For the additional powers the Heralds get, there needs to be drawbacks. For them it is corruption, leveling, and components. I know it drives min/maxxers crazy, but that is the condition of bringing the guild up to parity with other layman magic guilds.

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 522
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Arman » 21 Jul 2018 01:45

Draugor wrote:
Alisa wrote:
Draugor wrote:Arman, its 100% fair that Warlocks has to wait for weeks for their spells and we just got it even more lengthened and thus lost alot of spells while EW just has to grind t oget em? :P Not even that long mind you.

And here i though the whine would stop. @nerull, stop coding stuff to prevent Draugor from his max titles.
Meh, hopefully EW gets the same very soon, should prolly add corruption that the valar has to EC aswell just for funs? Arman, do it : ] "You have spells, but dont use em" would be awesome for Alisa :P
Mate, you have asked me to look into every guild in the game :P. I actually do want to do some coding at some point!

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1378
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Amberlee » 21 Jul 2018 03:42

Arman wrote:
Amberlee wrote:We disagree on one of the fundamental things here Arman.
In my opinion thematics is NOT king.
Functionability is king.

Here is why.
People will go for the better options... BECAUSE if they don't they end up getting ganked by opposing sides without a fighting chance.
Yes Layman guilds ARE that important.

I would love to say this is a RP game above all, but unfortunately it's not.
This is a PvE/PvP game that has a good RP community, and myself I count myself as one of the more dedicated RPers.
In this game where we lose so much time and work if we get killed, why would we ever choose a lesser option?
Why would these lesser options even be there?
That's a waste of both our time and your time.
We agree to disagree then.

Fundamentally there is no functional balance for pvp in the game at all... of all the elements in the game that are remotely balanced for pvp it is guilds. Which doesn't say much, however there are at least defined boundaries.

Race stat differences, weapon restrictions and prevalence, size disparity combined with guild variability means there isn't ever going to be remotely a fair playing field in pvp.

For fairness in pvp all that needs to be equalised. For that to happen you basically need to code a new game that isn't Genesis.

People can min/max if they want. But the guilds we want to code should provide variety and choice dependent on the play style preference of the player. All our principles are based around that... otherwise why should layman magic guilds get 40% more combat aid over combat layman guilds? To facilitate the thematics of a mage class. Which is why drawbacks are important for those guilds.
Amberlee wrote: Now I think we all can agree that Heralds were a horrible option before the recode.
A point to ponder would be to perhaps ask yourself WHY would some of the longtime members there express they would really just go back to having the old powers compared to how unplayable they are now?
Perhaps talk to some of those longtime members and get their opinion on it instead of railroading changes that hinders the gameplay to the degree the guild becomes undesireable again.
I haven't had any complaints with the exception of how the hortale spell works. Only thanks and praise. Considering the old guild essentially offered nothing except a stop-fight spell that is being phased out of the game, I imagine they really liked that spell.

Happy for them to contact me if they have other issues. My mailbox is always open.
Amberlee wrote: Perhaps talk to some of those longtime members and get their opinion on it instead of railroading changes that hinders the gameplay to the degree the guild becomes undesireable again.
This just reads to me of someone who wants more cake and is outraged that there is a calorie cost. For the additional powers the Heralds get, there needs to be drawbacks. For them it is corruption, leveling, and components. I know it drives min/maxxers crazy, but that is the condition of bringing the guild up to parity with other layman magic guilds.
Well you can't really claim someone wants to have their cake and eat it to, when they don't really like cake.

Let me be more clear.
I have no intention of ever joining the guild.
Not because of the recode, but simply it doesn't appeal to me and doesn't fit the RP of any of the characters I currently play.

I get that you may find the public underappreciative of your efforts when they criticize your design of things, and I think you do the jobs you do wanting to be as true as you can to the source material.
That said.. Some things needs to be "genesisfied"
Basically means that for something to work properly within the confines of the game you need to make some comprimizes.
Like you can't be a caster guild relying on heavy spellcasting to function, then give them a penalty that reduces their efficiency and/or access to spells if they get more corrupted.. Here you have spells!! Feel free never to use them.. That's just bad design.
Truthfully the preparations with components and hard grind needed to get the spells is a penalty enough, one that takes alot of effort in itself.


Now let's have a look at OotS.
The title grind there is REAL.
But the reality is that it stops at mid level when you get the obless.
You don't need to advance more in rank really cause there is nothing worth the incredible time and effort that it takes to get to the top.
Now there are ways to fix that rather easily, but that implies you being willing to take serious suggestions.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 522
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Arman » 21 Jul 2018 05:30

Amberlee wrote: Well you can't really claim someone wants to have their cake and eat it to, when they don't really like cake.
Cake is combat aid. Calories is drawbacks. So your complaint is that the people who don't like the new Heralds want a guild with spells of no combat value or don't care about the combat benefits. But the drawbacks only affect that combat value. So how on earth have the changes made it more detrimental or restrictive for them???

I find it very hard to take your comments seriously when you are lecturing at me about specific game design concepts from a position of little understanding of said concepts.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1378
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Amberlee » 21 Jul 2018 06:01

Arman wrote:
Amberlee wrote: Well you can't really claim someone wants to have their cake and eat it to, when they don't really like cake.
Cake is combat aid. Calories is drawbacks. So your complaint is that the people who don't like the new Heralds want a guild with spells of no combat value or don't care about the combat benefits. But the drawbacks only affect that combat value. So how on earth have the changes made it more detrimental or restrictive for them???

I find it very hard to take your comments seriously when you are lecturing at me about specific game design concepts from a position of little understanding of said concepts.

I suggest you speak with some of the more longtime Heralds.
I won't waste my time trying to talk to you anymore.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1780
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Draugor » 21 Jul 2018 08:22

Arman wrote: Mate, you have asked me to look into every guild in the game :P. I actually do want to do some coding at some point!

Likelly cause there are alot of issues :P But okay, couple of days of grinding compared to over 2 weeks of ritual wanking is completely fair :P Suppose its fair due to the "family" and stupid rules one of them forces on people :P

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1780
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Draugor » 21 Jul 2018 08:28

Arman wrote:
Is it fair that warlocks get 40% more combat aid (as do all layman magic guilds) than other layman guilds? Only if the drawback conditions are met. When reviewing the design of the warlocks in October last year spell progression/gain was something that was explicitly flagged as one of those drawbacks. On review post-opening, spells were being gained quicker than anticipated so it has been tweaked.
I do wonder what the EW drawback is :o

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 522
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Arman » 21 Jul 2018 09:58

Draugor wrote:
Arman wrote:
Is it fair that warlocks get 40% more combat aid (as do all layman magic guilds) than other layman guilds? Only if the drawback conditions are met. When reviewing the design of the warlocks in October last year spell progression/gain was something that was explicitly flagged as one of those drawbacks. On review post-opening, spells were being gained quicker than anticipated so it has been tweaked.
I do wonder what the EW drawback is :o
I do too. The principles aren't new, with the exception of one being expanded to incorporate combat aid. What I think is that initial design drawbacks become less so as the game evolves.

#sermon# In the beginning, herbs were really rare. There were herbs that only grew in two or three rooms - like red peppers, morgurths or fungiarbos - and the combined herb fields of Genesis was less than 3 digits, herbs didn't save on your person, one or two herbs were required for a casting, herb stores were a new concept... and you had a 24 hour armageddon and had to start again. Over time that all changed... herbs are far more common, they save, herb stores are at max capacity... compared to the early days of magic in the 90s herbs as a drawback are magnitudes different... and they no longer can stand alone as the sole drawback. And largely don't with magic guilds.

I am thinking gems as a component were the same. While I am no expert on EW spell components, I am thinking they were used as components with the lack of prevalence at the time being considered a significant drawback. That may not be the case now... but then like I said I haven't really looked in to their component use.

Then there is spell gain through levelling guildstat. Originally that was a somewhat effective drawback, but the introduction of death recovery really screwed that up. While that has been addressed it isn't a very effective drawback anymore. #endsermon#

I'll get around to looking at the EWs and their drawbacks. Their drawbacks likely needs to be reviewed and rebalanced, but I haven't been given any specific/detailed information that makes me think it is an urgent issue that warrants me re-prioritising my current work program. The rangers are really getting sick of being bumped!

Kvator
Titan
Posts: 548
Joined: 02 Sep 2010 21:25

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Kvator » 21 Jul 2018 10:38

Amberlee wrote: I won't waste my time trying to talk to you anymore.
lmao XD

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Alisa
Rising Hero
Posts: 354
Joined: 16 Nov 2014 23:10

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Alisa » 21 Jul 2018 11:29

Arman wrote: I'll get around to looking at the EWs and their drawbacks. Their drawbacks likely needs to be reviewed and rebalanced, but I haven't been given any specific/detailed information that makes me think it is an urgent issue that warrants me re-prioritising my current work program. The rangers are really getting sick of being bumped!
EW drawback, at the time, was that you didn't get recovery on gxp. Which players found a way to get around, by getting recovery before joining.
This is now global, so doesn't work anymore.

Application process is a drawback as well, when we are talking guild power. Free join is quicker, and you don't need to spent time showing your knowledge in a guild. In EW you generally need to use one-two weeks on applying, more if you're an alt that logs on for 5 minutes every week(which also has a high chance of getting you removed). This time in Warlocks, Oots and Heralds are spent on doing your rituals/healing/what? and getting more spells :-)

I can't compare "time spent" for components in EW vs Warlocks, Heralds or OOTS. Time in combat, vs time out of combat. How hard it is to find specifics vs how hard it is to buy specifics(if possible)

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