Guilds of Genesis

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Alisa
Hero
Posts: 377
Joined: 16 Nov 2014 23:10

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Alisa » 18 Jul 2018 20:03

Zugzug wrote: In fact, if the EW guild were not coded to be controlled by a tight group of goodie friends who still remember how we pulped them in the 90's
I was AA in the 90's :-)

sylphan
Great Adventurer
Posts: 193
Joined: 12 Nov 2017 19:56

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by sylphan » 18 Jul 2018 20:25

Draugor wrote:Heraldspeed ONLY working when mounted... the hell are people smoking in the wizzranks? -.-
Gotta say yeah, this is a head-scratcher for sure. Would love to peek behind the curtain on this one.

Makfly
Champion
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Makfly » 18 Jul 2018 20:28

Zugzug wrote:In fact, if the EW guild were not coded to be controlled by a tight group of goodie friends who still remember how we pulped them in the 90's, and didn't have a council/rules that would be enforced over the occupation guild rules - then there would be no need for warlocks (I do, personally find the theme of warlocks to be much more suitable).
Actually the council of EW was once I (DA), Ruben (DA), Amberlee (?), Guinevere (DO) and then I think it was Remo as the Focus who wasn't around much. Looking at those, it's not exactly what could be considered 'goodies'. So it wasn't coded to be controlled by a tight group of goodie friends.
There have been and still are people in EW now that are, and always have been evil aligned. I think this issue with EW and goodie-control has more to do with an unwillingness to follow guildrules (especially concerning player killing) than actual alignment.

Now after EW merged with EC, it's different. But this complaint have been there before this merge happened. Still perfectly possible to be evil aligned in EW, though.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 607
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Arman » 18 Jul 2018 23:50

Draugor wrote:
Ody wrote:
There are other ways to quantify power. Does the Warlock guild punish you for using your spells? Or punish you for being in an area for too long? The heralds do. Does the Warlock guild punish you for using spells on the wrong people? Heralds do. Does one of the most useful warlock spells break just because you dismount your horse? Heralds do.

Warlocks > Heralds when it comes to power simply because of the way herald spells function.
Warlocks where more a counter to EW and the old and corrupt system and quite heavy bias (telling someone flat out that they wont be allowed to join on any char kinda tells you alot, no not me :P) there, it also counters heralds at the same time :P And Heraldspeed ONLY working when mounted... the hell are people smoking in the wizzranks? -.-
Seeing I recoded the Heralds I can tell you. Lots of reasons.

Lore and thematics are a big one. Read your help files... it isn't your speed you are boosting, its your mount. Also potentially being the best quickness spell in the game it needs a catch. Power vs convenience.

But it is a good point you raise Draugor... maybe I should go back and look at the Warlocks and make sure some similar balancing features are included... (kidding)

Amberlee
Myth
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Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Amberlee » 19 Jul 2018 00:39

Arman wrote:
Draugor wrote:
Ody wrote:
There are other ways to quantify power. Does the Warlock guild punish you for using your spells? Or punish you for being in an area for too long? The heralds do. Does the Warlock guild punish you for using spells on the wrong people? Heralds do. Does one of the most useful warlock spells break just because you dismount your horse? Heralds do.

Warlocks > Heralds when it comes to power simply because of the way herald spells function.
Warlocks where more a counter to EW and the old and corrupt system and quite heavy bias (telling someone flat out that they wont be allowed to join on any char kinda tells you alot, no not me :P) there, it also counters heralds at the same time :P And Heraldspeed ONLY working when mounted... the hell are people smoking in the wizzranks? -.-
Seeing I recoded the Heralds I can tell you. Lots of reasons.

Lore and thematics are a big one. Read your help files... it isn't your speed you are boosting, its your mount. Also potentially being the best quickness spell in the game it needs a catch. Power vs convenience.

But it is a good point you raise Draugor... maybe I should go back and look at the Warlocks and make sure some similar balancing features are included... (kidding)

Here is a reality check though.
You can only use it in 1 of the really big grinders for goodies.
And 1 of the mid grinders.
So you basically exclude it's use in 80% of the game.
Which is just bad game design, and thematics should never be an excuse to make something so unusable.
Rather have it nerfed powerwise then and actually usable.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 607
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Arman » 19 Jul 2018 00:48

Amberlee wrote:
Arman wrote:
Draugor wrote: Warlocks where more a counter to EW and the old and corrupt system and quite heavy bias (telling someone flat out that they wont be allowed to join on any char kinda tells you alot, no not me :P) there, it also counters heralds at the same time :P And Heraldspeed ONLY working when mounted... the hell are people smoking in the wizzranks? -.-
Seeing I recoded the Heralds I can tell you. Lots of reasons.

Lore and thematics are a big one. Read your help files... it isn't your speed you are boosting, its your mount. Also potentially being the best quickness spell in the game it needs a catch. Power vs convenience.

But it is a good point you raise Draugor... maybe I should go back and look at the Warlocks and make sure some similar balancing features are included... (kidding)

Here is a reality check though.
You can only use it in 1 of the really big grinders for goodies.
And 1 of the mid grinders.
So you basically exclude it's use in 80% of the game.
Which is just bad game design, and thematics should never be an excuse to make something so unusable.
Rather have it nerfed powerwise then and actually usable.
If it was the only beneficial ability the Heralds had I may agree with you. But it isn't. I disagree that it is bad game design... a core aspect of magic guilds - which I have banged on forever - is that there is a cost for the power and ability versatility. You either don't care to listen, or seem to have an entitlement complex where you feel layman magic guilds should have everything with no disadvantages.

Kvator
Champion
Posts: 585
Joined: 02 Sep 2010 21:25

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Kvator » 19 Jul 2018 00:56

Draugor wrote: Blademasters and minos are 100% neutral. Calians also have no problems with minos, seen a few of em in there :P Pirates are neutral aswell alignwise, neidar for instance accept them for guildreference. THieves can be good but they get a cut in skills unless that thanged during the recode. So you're very much wrong on quite a few of the "evil" ones :P
Neutral guilds are still viable 'option for evils'

and prior to OOTS addition (time when Nerull started working on Warlocks) aside from neutral guilds there were:
1 evil casting layman vs 1 goodie casting layman (with Necros being better than Heralds)
1 evil thief* layman vs 1 goodie ranger layman (goodie one being totally useless and evil one having some kind of a niche - to annoy ppl :) )
2 evil fighter guilds vs 2 goodie fighter guilds (AA being best out of four and SB having kind of huge race restrictions, so the slight edge is to evils here as well imho)

All other were not align-restricted (and EW was 'I don't like you' restricted for some goodies as well).

So no - at this point of time there was not a huge problem with 'good vs evil' laymans balance (and since Warlocks are neutral it might be even more problematic now :) ).

* if you want to call thieves 'neutral' (because there's no auto-kick when align increase) then from now on let put Calians into this category as well :)

EDIT - just recalled that Archers can actually go evil (with special title set for the evil ones), so there were MORE evil options back then

Greneth
Wizard
Posts: 193
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 19:55

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Greneth » 19 Jul 2018 02:07

Arman wrote:
If it was the only beneficial ability the Heralds had I may agree with you. But it isn't. I disagree that it is bad game design... a core aspect of magic guilds - which I have banged on forever - is that there is a cost for the power and ability versatility. You either don't care to listen, or seem to have an entitlement complex where you feel layman magic guilds should have everything with no disadvantages.
The issue becomes he has she has and EW set the bar so high that anything else fails to measure up. I look at Warlocks now and it's costing people platinum coins left and right while an EW spell component is extremely common and littered all over the moors right next to their guild hall for the same spell. So while I agree with your line of thinking that drawbacks should be in place it's really hard to justify as long as one of the most controversial magical laymans for over the past decade has literally had none. And that's not crying it's just a simple factual comparison.

The other issue is much the same when you use lore as an argument in a game that is not roleplay enforced, has things like Morgul Mages? Dragon Armies that are restricted to one weapon type, Angmar Armies that are tanks which can only move behind other tanks, Gladiators that only know how to use axes, Hobbits tanking Dragons and slaying them with weapons such as Wyrmslayer that is about twice as long as them while wearing a deathplate that somehow now fits them from a giant Death Knight... I mean you can go on and on with the discrepancies. I've no idea what the Heralds get now but I agree with Amberlee, usability and mechanics should always come first and the lore wrapped around it to give it flavor.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1437
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Amberlee » 19 Jul 2018 02:42

Arman wrote:
If it was the only beneficial ability the Heralds had I may agree with you. But it isn't. I disagree that it is bad game design... a core aspect of magic guilds - which I have banged on forever - is that there is a cost for the power and ability versatility. You either don't care to listen, or seem to have an entitlement complex where you feel layman magic guilds should have everything with no disadvantages.
I don't have that entitlement.
The problem is that laymans matter.
ALOT.
They actually make or break the possibilities of the character.
Had this been a purely PvE game I would not have cared, but when it becomes a PvP game this has to be taken into account.
You really don't want two half-arsed possibilities when you need to whole-arse one.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1785
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: Guilds of Genesis

Post by Draugor » 19 Jul 2018 06:06

Suppose we'll see tons of valars in Mithas, and only mithas then :P Not like they are usefull anywhere else for the big ones. Hell not even alot of small grinders that are outdoors

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