Master of all trades, but jack of none?

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Rangar
Beginner
Posts: 18
Joined: 15 Dec 2012 23:07
Location: Poland

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Rangar » 14 Jul 2020 20:29

Nerull wrote:
13 Jul 2020 11:03
Could always add special requirements for new gamecontent that requires a tank class (else npc deals much more damage).

In this case, tank-classes must exist in a reasonable manner for all factions to avoid content lockout.


Example: Deep one of Cthulhu requires either an AA, Neidar or (knight or ??) as main tank, else the encounter becomes impossible to defeat.

Thoughts?
There is a similar system in place on Arkadia, the Polish LP MUD. The guilds are treated as societies with a common cause, and skills are instead granted not by the guild you are in, but what occupation you have. There are systems in place to balance the power of a guild or of an occupation - I'm no longer current on the specifics, perhaps Kvator could elaborate.

Anyhoo, you can have the Calian Warriors guild with 20 slots for "swarmers" and 5 slots for "tanks" and 2 slots for "priests" and 10 slots for other occupations (tactician issuing orders, tracker, merchant), you can have Army of Angmar with 10 slots for "tanks", 10 slots for "smashers" and some for tacticians, trackers, etc.

There is no finite list of occupations - if you want to add warlocks, arcane tricksters, paladins, trackers, thieves, druids, shapeshifters - you create a list of skills and specials and assign it to a class tree; if a guild has a class tree slot free, it can be occupied by any applicable occupation.

Of course, for some guilds where it makes sense, only one or two occupations are allowed (eg. Khiraa would only have priests or arcane knights, with no mundane fighters or thieves allowed). The system is flexible in both ways - if you want to create a new city and open a guild based in this city, you just code emotes for them and give it an allotment of occupation slots, as specific or as general as you'd like. This also allows racial guilds to have considerable political power, as they don't require current occupational guilds to serve as its armoured fist.

Apart from normally alloted occupation slots (especially for the elite occupations like paladins, knight commanders, berserkers, mages, etc.) a guild has a number for lesser occupation slots, and by completing special challenges can earn a specific extra slot for a set amount of time... Something to consider, maybe?

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Zhar
Wizard
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Zhar » 15 Jul 2020 00:40

This is a nice system but it would require a complete overhaul of the guilds in Genesis.

I was once thinking about making guilds in gen more like current SoHM/WoHS, where you would have your generic fighter, cleric, mage, thief, ranger, bard classes. All in Sparkle, free to join, all working as either OCC or LAY (with LAY having worse skills, less spells etc. of course). This way you could create any character you want: Fighter/Thief, Ranger/Cleric or whatever you like.

Then you would have elite guilds like the DAs, PoT, MM etc. To join them you'd need an application process and be of certain base OCC guild (and perhaps certain level in it) and they would provide you with extra functionality but at the cost of your LAY slot (working as super-specialists, like WoHS are for SoHM). So, instead of getting a bunch of sup jur or sup craft skills and weak specials/spells provided by typical LAY guild you'd get a boost to your OCC guild instead with better skills (only way to get sup guru weapon, your mattack turning into slash, getting a dragon etc.), more spells and so on.

It would be way easier to balance things then since by balancing the base Fighter class you'd effectively balance all the specialized guilds that depend on it at the same time. This solution would be way more feasible with what we already have in place but would still require a lot of work.

Edit: I originally thought of it as a cool way for people to enjoy the game as being whatever they want, without having to care for politics etc. and leaving that to the most dedicated. It would also let people just play the character they imagined without too much of a fuss (neutral, free to join human rangers anyone? Perhaps a Cleric/Ranger roleplaying as a neutral druid?).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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Mavros
Wizard
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Joined: 24 Jun 2020 05:50

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Mavros » 15 Jul 2020 02:57

Rangar wrote:
14 Jul 2020 20:29
There is a similar system in place on Arkadia, the Polish LP MUD. The guilds are treated as societies with a common cause, and skills are instead granted not by the guild you are in, but what occupation you have. There are systems in place to balance the power of a guild or of an occupation - I'm no longer current on the specifics, perhaps Kvator could elaborate.
This is personally how I feel guilds should be organized. There would be more connection between different player types. It also puts elements of role-play before occupational choice. Choosing what faction and cause you support and also having the freedom to choose how you want to play the game (club-user, caster, etc) would be so constructive for growth of the game and interaction.

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nils
Rising Hero
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Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by nils » 15 Jul 2020 10:59

A lot of the latest replies are drifting into detailing a different game all together, and the changes described/suggested are not within the realms of reason or even possibility.

If the intention of my post was unclear: I was suggesting a new regime/rule set for how to balance guilds in the future, and in time retroactively to re-balance (in particular, but not exlusively) magic guilds that do all combat aspects better than, or equal, to a "specialist".

There has to be drawbacks to versatility, and inconveniences such as preparations, roleplay demands, alignment restrictions et cetera aside, it's getting painfully obvious that simple taxation of experience does not even begin to suffice.

A funny side note: the most versatile race in genesis is accepted as "without benefit".
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

Poultry
Apprentice
Posts: 36
Joined: 10 Feb 2018 21:33

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Poultry » 15 Jul 2020 20:23

nils wrote:
15 Jul 2020 10:59
If the intention of my post was unclear: I was suggesting a new regime/rule set for how to balance guilds in the future, and in time retroactively to re-balance (in particular, but not exlusively) magic guilds that do all combat aspects better than, or equal, to a "specialist".

There has to be drawbacks to versatility, and inconveniences such as preparations, roleplay demands, alignment restrictions et cetera aside, it's getting painfully obvious that simple taxation of experience does not even begin to suffice.
It's getting painfully obvious that you have NO IDEA about the drawbacks of magic guilds. Why not join SOHM for a while and see what the downsides are?

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nils
Rising Hero
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Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by nils » 16 Jul 2020 07:09

Poultry wrote:
15 Jul 2020 20:23
It's getting painfully obvious that you have NO IDEA about the drawbacks of magic guilds. Why not join SOHM for a while and see what the downsides are?
I have been a SoHM and those drawbacks are so negligible they qualify as nuisances at best. I think maybe you kind of missed my point here, but I'm not going to repeat it.
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

Poultry
Apprentice
Posts: 36
Joined: 10 Feb 2018 21:33

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Poultry » 17 Jul 2020 19:02

Over the last year or two, changes have been made to 'balance' SOHM (and WOHS), and there are significant drawbacks now. It's not like it was when I started where you could be drunk, blast everything without components, and lose no mana. It's not like that at all.

Zedex
Greenhorne
Posts: 7
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 01:18

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Zedex » 17 Jul 2020 20:56

No offence Poultry but if SOHM wasn't free to join guild and anyone couldn't just check it maybe your claim about harsh drawbacks was believable. As Nils said they are nuisances in exchange for considerable firepower if you compare it to a fighter player even of higher mortal level.

Thalric
Great Adventurer
Posts: 191
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Thalric » 17 Jul 2020 21:42

Zedex, are you in the SoHM?
If not, why?
If they are so awesome as you say and has no penalties or drawbacks, choosing anything else would surely be stupid?
From a grinding perspective...

Amberlee
Myth
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Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Amberlee » 18 Jul 2020 12:31

Poultry wrote:
17 Jul 2020 19:02
Over the last year or two, changes have been made to 'balance' SOHM (and WOHS), and there are significant drawbacks now. It's not like it was when I started where you could be drunk, blast everything without components, and lose no mana. It's not like that at all.
Fact is.
You can still fill ANY role in a team easily, well except healer.
Or wait.
As SoHM you actually can by joining OOTS, Warlock or Herald layman.
So yeah..
It's true you no longer can double shield or suffer major drawbacks while casting.
Or you can just pre cast your buffs and be dedicated tank like Neidar and cycle a couple of at wills and hope they work, though they don't really matter since it's your team doing the actual damage.
Or you can sologrind spec with tanky spells and some weapons with good defensive stats like defence and parry with enchant weapon spell up to pump your parry skill.

Does take time to reset to another role though but that, no booze and components are the only drawbacks and they are easily overcome.
Now I can't speak to WoHS powers but surely they are more powerful than SoHM i'd wager.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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