There are so many inaccuracies and selective facts to this post I don't know where to start. The only point that isn't a derail worth responding to was that goodies have more healing options than evils. Which is my entire point for why the warlocks and Worshippers are allowed to keep their versatility for the time being.Amberlee wrote: ↑07 Sep 2020 10:34Well well well.Arman wrote: ↑07 Sep 2020 02:54I think that is the point. Warlocks and Worshippers cover all magic bases, including healing. And as I flagged, those two guilds need to evolve to _not_ be masters of everything. They will need to become more specialised for the reason Nils outlined above.Thalric wrote: ↑06 Sep 2020 16:24An evil layman healing? Why?
They're all Warlocks now anyways.
They get all the super bonuses for a melee fighter and a ton of very useful abilities for pvp.
If I was a pvp-lover or a bully I wouldn't want to go elsewhere.
And how many of the people who grind their hearts out really care about a good/evil theme?
They will choose whatever combo is the best and allows them the most free reins.
On the good aligned side there are enough magic layman options to allow for a narrowing of the scope of the Worshippers. There isn't enough options for the evil aligned side for us to introduce a narrowing of the scope to the Warlocks without introducing a global imbalance.
If that gap is pegged, restrictions can be incorporated to the allowed spell toolkits of Worshippers and Warlocks, evening the layman playing field.
That may mean that allowable spells/prayers currently granted to those guilds are not available to all members, but are restricted depending on who your patron/elemental lord is.
Here is a thought to your balancing.
Fact is that Warlocks do not only fill the space of a more widely accessible version of the Worshippers.
It is also one of two source of healing available to evils.
I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
At the same time goodies have the strongest available DPS/tank combination being Calians.
There you can basically do the best DPS and get your tanking upped ridiculously by teaming with other Calians!
Oh and you can rotate out who tanks at the same time basically making them an unstoppable force.
Not to mention hidden benefits like after they switch tanks with move behind they are immune to being attacked for a certain amount of time!
And Calia the domain also has the Masters of All Trades OCC guild called Elemental Clerics which are the best healers, best nukers and can transport people all over genesis in one spell!
Do you plan to give evils guilds like this too Arman?
Master of all trades, but jack of none?
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Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?
Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?
Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).Amberlee wrote: ↑07 Sep 2020 10:34I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
OOC is different, but you can't exclude PoT here selectively. The fact that they are few and far between is not relevant to the discussion if people have access to the guild (and they do, PoT are accepting new recruits but most people are of the mind that powerplay > roleplay, hence so few of them are around).
Do goodies have more healing options? Yes.
Does this change much? In my opinion - no. What good is having a choice between 2 guilds with healing that are pretty much the same skill/spell wise (heralds, oots) over having just one option? The only difference here is potential RP but in terms of strict mechanics there is virtually no difference at all. In the same vein, it doesn't matter if you can join oots, heralds or warlocks, you'll get your healing regardless of align.
Personally, I'd keep the difference between good and evil as goodies having healing powers while evils being more focused on destruction. So, adding more evil layman guilds with damaging/debilitating spells/specials rather than healing.
Would be nice to see the return of Disciples as evil minstrels. Blind is cool.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?
I disagree that evils should have less healing options just because they are evil, and not good for gamebalance. Currently, not an issue, but it could quickly be one if proper content requiring healers are introduced, which means we must sidetrack whatever we are doing and do post-hoc fixes due too...yeah, bad gamedesignZhar wrote: ↑08 Sep 2020 16:13Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).Amberlee wrote: ↑07 Sep 2020 10:34I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
OOC is different, but you can't exclude PoT here selectively. The fact that they are few and far between is not relevant to the discussion if people have access to the guild (and they do, PoT are accepting new recruits but most people are of the mind that powerplay > roleplay, hence so few of them are around).
Do goodies have more healing options? Yes.
Does this change much? In my opinion - no. What good is having a choice between 2 guilds with healing that are pretty much the same skill/spell wise (heralds, oots) over having just one option? The only difference here is potential RP but in terms of strict mechanics there is virtually no difference at all. In the same vein, it doesn't matter if you can join oots, heralds or warlocks, you'll get your healing regardless of align.
Personally, I'd keep the difference between good and evil as goodies having healing powers while evils being more focused on destruction. So, adding more evil layman guilds with damaging/debilitating spells/specials rather than healing.
Would be nice to see the return of Disciples as evil minstrels. Blind is cool.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
I think Arman is right.,
Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?
Which is why I added all except Worshippers on both evil and good.Zhar wrote: ↑08 Sep 2020 16:13Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).Amberlee wrote: ↑07 Sep 2020 10:34I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
Not worshippers though they are inherently good.
They are run by a goodie council and are an extension of a good guild.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.
Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?
I never really understood the switch from purely neutral guild that was originally worshippers to now goodie-biased one. I think it has to do with merging of Psuchae into it. Defnitely Calia could use some cool antagonist guild, like the Kretan army or Dephonian templars/priestesses (but that would be kinda duplicating templars/pot but in a different domain).Amberlee wrote: ↑08 Sep 2020 18:47Which is why I added all except Worshippers on both evil and good.Zhar wrote: ↑08 Sep 2020 16:13Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).Amberlee wrote: ↑07 Sep 2020 10:34I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
Not worshippers though they are inherently good.
They are run by a goodie council and are an extension of a good guild.
I didn't talk about game balance. Merely from a thematic standpoint. To make everyone versatile we could have heal/harm spells like in D&D where heal heals goodies and harms evils and vice versa for harm.Nerull wrote: ↑08 Sep 2020 18:04I disagree that evils should have less healing options just because they are evil, and not good for gamebalance. Currently, not an issue, but it could quickly be one if proper content requiring healers are introduced, which means we must sidetrack whatever we are doing and do post-hoc fixes due too...yeah, bad gamedesign![]()
I still think that RP wise evils should be more focused on damage/debuffs while goodies healing/buffs. It's kinda boring if both sides just mirror each other and all that changes is your align, not playstyle.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?
Worshippers are not inherently good! They can be as evil as they like. I can make my Worshipper as evil as I see fit, as long as they respect the rules of the guild.Amberlee wrote: ↑08 Sep 2020 18:47Which is why I added all except Worshippers on both evil and good.Zhar wrote: ↑08 Sep 2020 16:13Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).Amberlee wrote: ↑07 Sep 2020 10:34I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
Not worshippers though they are inherently good.
They are run by a goodie council and are an extension of a good guild.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are flavoured that way that many Occupational good-aligned guilds restrict their members from being a Warlock. You're saying Warlocks are open to both good and evil. That's true - technically speaking. Perhaps then see if you know many good Warlocks and ask why. Or why not.
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Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
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Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?
And yet they are under the complete control of a goodie guild.Redblade wrote: ↑09 Sep 2020 12:48Worshippers are not inherently good! They can be as evil as they like. I can make my Worshipper as evil as I see fit, as long as they respect the rules of the guild.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are flavoured that way that many Occupational good-aligned guilds restrict their members from being a Warlock. You're saying Warlocks are open to both good and evil. That's true - technically speaking. Perhaps then see if you know many good Warlocks and ask why. Or why not.![]()
And if you don't see the problem with that then you need to go sit in the corner.
Time out for you.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.
Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?
Actually Redblade, this is not 100% correct. The same thing you said about good-aligned occ with warlocks can be said about evil-aligned occ and worshippers. Several evil occ guilds restrict from being a worshipper.Redblade wrote: ↑09 Sep 2020 12:48Worshippers are not inherently good! They can be as evil as they like. I can make my Worshipper as evil as I see fit, as long as they respect the rules of the guild.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are flavoured that way that many Occupational good-aligned guilds restrict their members from being a Warlock. You're saying Warlocks are open to both good and evil. That's true - technically speaking. Perhaps then see if you know many good Warlocks and ask why. Or why not.![]()
There are restrictions on Worshippers that are definitely biased towards good.
Based on Genesis current alignment system, both Warlocks and Worshippers should be aligned, not neutral. If you look at their themes, they are definitely biased to one side or the other. While we can all agree that the alignment system is greatly flawed, these two guilds really should fall under good/evil, not neutral.
Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?
So what's the complete control?Amberlee wrote: ↑09 Sep 2020 14:03And yet they are under the complete control of a goodie guild.Redblade wrote: ↑09 Sep 2020 12:48Worshippers are not inherently good! They can be as evil as they like. I can make my Worshipper as evil as I see fit, as long as they respect the rules of the guild.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are flavoured that way that many Occupational good-aligned guilds restrict their members from being a Warlock. You're saying Warlocks are open to both good and evil. That's true - technically speaking. Perhaps then see if you know many good Warlocks and ask why. Or why not.![]()
And if you don't see the problem with that then you need to go sit in the corner.
Time out for you.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!
Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?
I agree, your point on the other side of the table is fair. Perhaps then EW and Warlocks should be aligned?Anfalas wrote: ↑09 Sep 2020 14:10Actually Redblade, this is not 100% correct. The same thing you said about good-aligned occ with warlocks can be said about evil-aligned occ and worshippers. Several evil occ guilds restrict from being a worshipper.Redblade wrote: ↑09 Sep 2020 12:48Worshippers are not inherently good! They can be as evil as they like. I can make my Worshipper as evil as I see fit, as long as they respect the rules of the guild.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are flavoured that way that many Occupational good-aligned guilds restrict their members from being a Warlock. You're saying Warlocks are open to both good and evil. That's true - technically speaking. Perhaps then see if you know many good Warlocks and ask why. Or why not.![]()
There are restrictions on Worshippers that are definitely biased towards good.
Based on Genesis current alignment system, both Warlocks and Worshippers should be aligned, not neutral. If you look at their themes, they are definitely biased to one side or the other. While we can all agree that the alignment system is greatly flawed, these two guilds really should fall under good/evil, not neutral.
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!
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