Master of all trades, but jack of none?

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Drazson
Rising Hero
Posts: 333
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Drazson » 18 Jul 2020 13:44

Amberlee wrote:
18 Jul 2020 12:31
You can still fill ANY role in a team easily, well except healer.
You cannot.
Amberlee wrote:
18 Jul 2020 12:31
As SoHM you actually can by joining OOTS, Warlock or Herald layman.
That means most occupational guilds can fill the healer role, not sure why we're discussing it really.
Amberlee wrote:
18 Jul 2020 12:31
Or you can just pre cast your buffs and be dedicated tank like Neidar [...]
I guess Neidars have been nerfed to the ground in the last few weeks?
Amberlee wrote:
18 Jul 2020 12:31
[...] no booze and components are the only drawbacks and they are easily overcome.
I herb for hours upon hours to be in a well-prepared state, while some (and one of the quite used) herbs are not everywhere to be found, with us being numerous.

Zedex
Greenhorne
Posts: 7
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 01:18

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Zedex » 19 Jul 2020 08:31

Thalric wrote:
17 Jul 2020 21:42
Zedex, are you in the SoHM?
If not, why?
If they are so awesome as you say and has no penalties or drawbacks, choosing anything else would surely be stupid?
From a grinding perspective...
Yes, I've got two chars in this game and one of them is in SoHM. I would take zedex there if recalibrating from goblin wasn't so painful and time consuming. But all in all it's more or less balanced comparing to one guild in Calia :D

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1470
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Amberlee » 20 Jul 2020 18:25

Drazson wrote:
18 Jul 2020 13:44
Amberlee wrote:
18 Jul 2020 12:31
You can still fill ANY role in a team easily, well except healer.
You cannot.
Amberlee wrote:
18 Jul 2020 12:31
As SoHM you actually can by joining OOTS, Warlock or Herald layman.
That means most occupational guilds can fill the healer role, not sure why we're discussing it really.
Amberlee wrote:
18 Jul 2020 12:31
Or you can just pre cast your buffs and be dedicated tank like Neidar [...]
I guess Neidars have been nerfed to the ground in the last few weeks?
Amberlee wrote:
18 Jul 2020 12:31
[...] no booze and components are the only drawbacks and they are easily overcome.
I herb for hours upon hours to be in a well-prepared state, while some (and one of the quite used) herbs are not everywhere to be found, with us being numerous.


Not my fault you have no idea how to set up the guild nor where to herb stuff in abundance.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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nils
Rising Hero
Posts: 324
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by nils » 05 Sep 2020 06:43

This thread kinda died out without any.. catharsis, and with the emergence of a new layman it feels natural to necro it.

While the Raiders are cool, they are specialized in the way that they only offer damage. Now many (myself included) have begged for a pure damage option for layman (Weaponmasters anyone?), and the Raiders fill that slot nicely. Hat's off, Arman.

Now there's a roleplaying aspect to all things, but talking from a pure powerplaying perspective, why have I not made the switch from Warlock? I have been begging for this for so long! Well, it turns out versatility trumps specialization once again!

While in full offensive mode enjoying the same offensive combat aid as the Raiders, I can switch to full defensive mode in literally seconds. All the while enjoying the shit out of the additional toolkit (not revealed here). Warlocks/Elemental Worshippers are the Masters of all trades and Jacks of none. The Raiders are Masters of one trade, and Jacks of the rest.

Sure, I pay more tax, probably a lot more, but it doesn't affect me the slightest.
Why bother with just a piece of cake, when you can eat the whole damn thing instead?

Specialization must be rewarded
Versatility must be.. penalized

Tax doesn't even begin to solve this problem.
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

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cotillion
Site Admin
Posts: 328
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 01:14

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by cotillion » 06 Sep 2020 11:56

nils wrote:
05 Sep 2020 06:43

[snip]

Specialization must be rewarded
Versatility must be.. penalized

Tax doesn't even begin to solve this problem.
Agreed. The current system does not really do this. And some of the things we do currently when balancing actually reward versality.

The combat aid to tax calculation is just wrong. So it's always beneficial to join the highest tax guild there is.

Drazson
Rising Hero
Posts: 333
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Drazson » 06 Sep 2020 12:27

Just don't target actually versatile guilds - those that already have less depth for their increased width.

You are talking about guilds that have more stuff and are overpowered, not versatile ones.

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Arman
Wizard
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Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Arman » 06 Sep 2020 15:19

Nils, I am open to discuss the point of versatility vs specialisation for layman guilds and how it could evolve.

Changes were made to layman guilds when I did the relatively recent global review. A purely offensive or defensive layman melee guild could make use of their full combat aid cap for their special... so minotaurs, blademasters, pirates are examples of that. Melee guilds that can switch between offensive and defensive abilities (like lay AA, Templars or Thornlin militia) have a lower maximum combat aid cap allowed for their individual abilities compared to pure layman guilds. So pound for pound they won't be offensively or defensively better than a 'specialist', but they do get the benefit of a bit of both. On balance, they all have the same combat aid.... and I think the layman combat guilds are generally in a good balanced place.

Layman magic guilds do take versatility to another level, and they probably will have to evolve further once other global considerations come in to play in the game. As part of the layman review, the maximum combat aid cap of maintained spells (individually and stacked) was introduced. That cap for maintained spells makes them more aligned to melee generalists now. Granted, still with a lot more versatility... but also with a lot more requirements to use those abilities than melee guilds. Does that make them balanced though? Does that argument hold water?

From my perspective, I look at how the layman magic situation has evolved over time. After the introduction of the standardised magic system there was only one layman guild created using that system... and it was the only one for a long time that used that system. That was the Worshippers, and they became the de facto benchmark for future layman guilds. As we began the conversion over of the other layman guilds (Necromancers, Heralds, Minstrels) the balance issue was more about who could access what layman magic abilities.

So the Warlocks were born as a baseline balance to the Worshippers, allowing access to essentially the same layman spell abilities to just about all guilds and players. These two guilds have a spell toolkit unrivaled by other layman guilds. And correct me if I have misinterpreted.. but I imagine your issue with 'master of all trades' isn't about all layman magic guilds but about these two guilds in particular?

From a balance point of view, they will need to go through an evolution to deal with the issues you've raised. Those two guilds will need to become more specialised and less jack of all trades. However in my mind the game is not ready for that yet. I feel there needs to be at least one solid evil layman healing option to allow enough playing options. Once we have that I think there can be a tightening of the abilities of those two guilds without leaving a capability gap for evil players.

Just a couple of other points.

All layman guilds fit within essentially the same combat aid limitations. And combat aid is based on combat benefit at any one point in time. At any one point in time they are all equal. So they are all balanced (for a given value of 'balanced' [paraphrasing Pratchett's "for a given value of 'truth'" quotehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children]).

When talking about balance, guild tax is a distraction. It is a secondary or tertiary lever these days when considering balance. Combat aid is king.

Thalric
Great Adventurer
Posts: 191
Joined: 14 Jun 2016 16:34

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Thalric » 06 Sep 2020 16:24

An evil layman healing? Why?
They're all Warlocks now anyways.

They get all the super bonuses for a melee fighter and a ton of very useful abilities for pvp.
If I was a pvp-lover or a bully I wouldn't want to go elsewhere.

And how many of the people who grind their hearts out really care about a good/evil theme?
They will choose whatever combo is the best and allows them the most free reins.

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 621
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Arman » 07 Sep 2020 02:54

Thalric wrote:
06 Sep 2020 16:24
An evil layman healing? Why?
They're all Warlocks now anyways.

They get all the super bonuses for a melee fighter and a ton of very useful abilities for pvp.
If I was a pvp-lover or a bully I wouldn't want to go elsewhere.

And how many of the people who grind their hearts out really care about a good/evil theme?
They will choose whatever combo is the best and allows them the most free reins.
I think that is the point. Warlocks and Worshippers cover all magic bases, including healing. And as I flagged, those two guilds need to evolve to _not_ be masters of everything. They will need to become more specialised for the reason Nils outlined above.

On the good aligned side there are enough magic layman options to allow for a narrowing of the scope of the Worshippers. There isn't enough options for the evil aligned side for us to introduce a narrowing of the scope to the Warlocks without introducing a global imbalance.

If that gap is pegged, restrictions can be incorporated to the allowed spell toolkits of Worshippers and Warlocks, evening the layman playing field.

That may mean that allowable spells/prayers currently granted to those guilds are not available to all members, but are restricted depending on who your patron/elemental lord is.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1470
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Amberlee » 07 Sep 2020 10:34

Arman wrote:
07 Sep 2020 02:54
Thalric wrote:
06 Sep 2020 16:24
An evil layman healing? Why?
They're all Warlocks now anyways.

They get all the super bonuses for a melee fighter and a ton of very useful abilities for pvp.
If I was a pvp-lover or a bully I wouldn't want to go elsewhere.

And how many of the people who grind their hearts out really care about a good/evil theme?
They will choose whatever combo is the best and allows them the most free reins.
I think that is the point. Warlocks and Worshippers cover all magic bases, including healing. And as I flagged, those two guilds need to evolve to _not_ be masters of everything. They will need to become more specialised for the reason Nils outlined above.

On the good aligned side there are enough magic layman options to allow for a narrowing of the scope of the Worshippers. There isn't enough options for the evil aligned side for us to introduce a narrowing of the scope to the Warlocks without introducing a global imbalance.

If that gap is pegged, restrictions can be incorporated to the allowed spell toolkits of Worshippers and Warlocks, evening the layman playing field.

That may mean that allowable spells/prayers currently granted to those guilds are not available to all members, but are restricted depending on who your patron/elemental lord is.
Well well well.
Here is a thought to your balancing.
Fact is that Warlocks do not only fill the space of a more widely accessible version of the Worshippers.
It is also one of two source of healing available to evils.
I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
At the same time goodies have the strongest available DPS/tank combination being Calians.
There you can basically do the best DPS and get your tanking upped ridiculously by teaming with other Calians!
Oh and you can rotate out who tanks at the same time basically making them an unstoppable force.
Not to mention hidden benefits like after they switch tanks with move behind they are immune to being attacked for a certain amount of time!
And Calia the domain also has the Masters of All Trades OCC guild called Elemental Clerics which are the best healers, best nukers and can transport people all over genesis in one spell!

Do you plan to give evils guilds like this too Arman?
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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