Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Only validated game players have access in this forum. Use this forum to discuss guilds. Note that as a general rule, guild abilities should not be revealed.
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
User avatar
Arman
Wizard
Posts: 621
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Arman » 07 Sep 2020 10:55

Amberlee wrote:
07 Sep 2020 10:34
Arman wrote:
07 Sep 2020 02:54
Thalric wrote:
06 Sep 2020 16:24
An evil layman healing? Why?
They're all Warlocks now anyways.

They get all the super bonuses for a melee fighter and a ton of very useful abilities for pvp.
If I was a pvp-lover or a bully I wouldn't want to go elsewhere.

And how many of the people who grind their hearts out really care about a good/evil theme?
They will choose whatever combo is the best and allows them the most free reins.
I think that is the point. Warlocks and Worshippers cover all magic bases, including healing. And as I flagged, those two guilds need to evolve to _not_ be masters of everything. They will need to become more specialised for the reason Nils outlined above.

On the good aligned side there are enough magic layman options to allow for a narrowing of the scope of the Worshippers. There isn't enough options for the evil aligned side for us to introduce a narrowing of the scope to the Warlocks without introducing a global imbalance.

If that gap is pegged, restrictions can be incorporated to the allowed spell toolkits of Worshippers and Warlocks, evening the layman playing field.

That may mean that allowable spells/prayers currently granted to those guilds are not available to all members, but are restricted depending on who your patron/elemental lord is.
Well well well.
Here is a thought to your balancing.
Fact is that Warlocks do not only fill the space of a more widely accessible version of the Worshippers.
It is also one of two source of healing available to evils.
I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
At the same time goodies have the strongest available DPS/tank combination being Calians.
There you can basically do the best DPS and get your tanking upped ridiculously by teaming with other Calians!
Oh and you can rotate out who tanks at the same time basically making them an unstoppable force.
Not to mention hidden benefits like after they switch tanks with move behind they are immune to being attacked for a certain amount of time!
And Calia the domain also has the Masters of All Trades OCC guild called Elemental Clerics which are the best healers, best nukers and can transport people all over genesis in one spell!

Do you plan to give evils guilds like this too Arman?
There are so many inaccuracies and selective facts to this post I don't know where to start. The only point that isn't a derail worth responding to was that goodies have more healing options than evils. Which is my entire point for why the warlocks and Worshippers are allowed to keep their versatility for the time being.

User avatar
Zhar
Wizard
Posts: 904
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Zhar » 08 Sep 2020 16:13

Amberlee wrote:
07 Sep 2020 10:34
I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).

OOC is different, but you can't exclude PoT here selectively. The fact that they are few and far between is not relevant to the discussion if people have access to the guild (and they do, PoT are accepting new recruits but most people are of the mind that powerplay > roleplay, hence so few of them are around).

Do goodies have more healing options? Yes.
Does this change much? In my opinion - no. What good is having a choice between 2 guilds with healing that are pretty much the same skill/spell wise (heralds, oots) over having just one option? The only difference here is potential RP but in terms of strict mechanics there is virtually no difference at all. In the same vein, it doesn't matter if you can join oots, heralds or warlocks, you'll get your healing regardless of align.

Personally, I'd keep the difference between good and evil as goodies having healing powers while evils being more focused on destruction. So, adding more evil layman guilds with damaging/debilitating spells/specials rather than healing.

Would be nice to see the return of Disciples as evil minstrels. Blind is cool.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Nerull
Wizard
Posts: 112
Joined: 05 Jul 2014 23:24

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Nerull » 08 Sep 2020 18:04

Zhar wrote:
08 Sep 2020 16:13
Amberlee wrote:
07 Sep 2020 10:34
I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).

OOC is different, but you can't exclude PoT here selectively. The fact that they are few and far between is not relevant to the discussion if people have access to the guild (and they do, PoT are accepting new recruits but most people are of the mind that powerplay > roleplay, hence so few of them are around).

Do goodies have more healing options? Yes.
Does this change much? In my opinion - no. What good is having a choice between 2 guilds with healing that are pretty much the same skill/spell wise (heralds, oots) over having just one option? The only difference here is potential RP but in terms of strict mechanics there is virtually no difference at all. In the same vein, it doesn't matter if you can join oots, heralds or warlocks, you'll get your healing regardless of align.

Personally, I'd keep the difference between good and evil as goodies having healing powers while evils being more focused on destruction. So, adding more evil layman guilds with damaging/debilitating spells/specials rather than healing.

Would be nice to see the return of Disciples as evil minstrels. Blind is cool.
I disagree that evils should have less healing options just because they are evil, and not good for gamebalance. Currently, not an issue, but it could quickly be one if proper content requiring healers are introduced, which means we must sidetrack whatever we are doing and do post-hoc fixes due too...yeah, bad gamedesign :)

I think Arman is right.,

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1470
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Amberlee » 08 Sep 2020 18:47

Zhar wrote:
08 Sep 2020 16:13
Amberlee wrote:
07 Sep 2020 10:34
I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).
Which is why I added all except Worshippers on both evil and good.
Not worshippers though they are inherently good.
They are run by a goodie council and are an extension of a good guild.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

User avatar
Zhar
Wizard
Posts: 904
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Zhar » 08 Sep 2020 20:23

Amberlee wrote:
08 Sep 2020 18:47
Zhar wrote:
08 Sep 2020 16:13
Amberlee wrote:
07 Sep 2020 10:34
I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).
Which is why I added all except Worshippers on both evil and good.
Not worshippers though they are inherently good.
They are run by a goodie council and are an extension of a good guild.
I never really understood the switch from purely neutral guild that was originally worshippers to now goodie-biased one. I think it has to do with merging of Psuchae into it. Defnitely Calia could use some cool antagonist guild, like the Kretan army or Dephonian templars/priestesses (but that would be kinda duplicating templars/pot but in a different domain).
Nerull wrote:
08 Sep 2020 18:04
I disagree that evils should have less healing options just because they are evil, and not good for gamebalance. Currently, not an issue, but it could quickly be one if proper content requiring healers are introduced, which means we must sidetrack whatever we are doing and do post-hoc fixes due too...yeah, bad gamedesign :)
I didn't talk about game balance. Merely from a thematic standpoint. To make everyone versatile we could have heal/harm spells like in D&D where heal heals goodies and harms evils and vice versa for harm.

I still think that RP wise evils should be more focused on damage/debuffs while goodies healing/buffs. It's kinda boring if both sides just mirror each other and all that changes is your align, not playstyle.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

User avatar
Redblade
Beginner
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Aug 2020 18:51

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Redblade » 09 Sep 2020 12:48

Amberlee wrote:
08 Sep 2020 18:47
Zhar wrote:
08 Sep 2020 16:13
Amberlee wrote:
07 Sep 2020 10:34
I say two because I do not count PoT as anything but their own faction as they are so few and rarely active.
Where as good have how many?
Well just for laymans there are worshippers, heralds, OoTS, minstrels AND warlocks?(Yes warlocks are open to both good and evil.)
Add OCC that have healing and you have Rangers and EC.
Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).
Which is why I added all except Worshippers on both evil and good.
Not worshippers though they are inherently good.
They are run by a goodie council and are an extension of a good guild.
Worshippers are not inherently good! They can be as evil as they like. I can make my Worshipper as evil as I see fit, as long as they respect the rules of the guild.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are flavoured that way that many Occupational good-aligned guilds restrict their members from being a Warlock. You're saying Warlocks are open to both good and evil. That's true - technically speaking. Perhaps then see if you know many good Warlocks and ask why. Or why not. :)
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1470
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Amberlee » 09 Sep 2020 14:03

Redblade wrote:
09 Sep 2020 12:48
Amberlee wrote:
08 Sep 2020 18:47
Zhar wrote:
08 Sep 2020 16:13


Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).
Which is why I added all except Worshippers on both evil and good.
Not worshippers though they are inherently good.
They are run by a goodie council and are an extension of a good guild.
Worshippers are not inherently good! They can be as evil as they like. I can make my Worshipper as evil as I see fit, as long as they respect the rules of the guild.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are flavoured that way that many Occupational good-aligned guilds restrict their members from being a Warlock. You're saying Warlocks are open to both good and evil. That's true - technically speaking. Perhaps then see if you know many good Warlocks and ask why. Or why not. :)
And yet they are under the complete control of a goodie guild.
And if you don't see the problem with that then you need to go sit in the corner.
Time out for you.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Anfalas
Wanderer
Posts: 55
Joined: 10 May 2016 02:41

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Anfalas » 09 Sep 2020 14:10

Redblade wrote:
09 Sep 2020 12:48
Amberlee wrote:
08 Sep 2020 18:47
Zhar wrote:
08 Sep 2020 16:13


Amberlee, of all the layman options with healing powers only OotS and Heralds are restricted to good align (worshippers, minstrels and locks can all be joined by evils).
Which is why I added all except Worshippers on both evil and good.
Not worshippers though they are inherently good.
They are run by a goodie council and are an extension of a good guild.
Worshippers are not inherently good! They can be as evil as they like. I can make my Worshipper as evil as I see fit, as long as they respect the rules of the guild.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are flavoured that way that many Occupational good-aligned guilds restrict their members from being a Warlock. You're saying Warlocks are open to both good and evil. That's true - technically speaking. Perhaps then see if you know many good Warlocks and ask why. Or why not. :)
Actually Redblade, this is not 100% correct. The same thing you said about good-aligned occ with warlocks can be said about evil-aligned occ and worshippers. Several evil occ guilds restrict from being a worshipper.

There are restrictions on Worshippers that are definitely biased towards good.

Based on Genesis current alignment system, both Warlocks and Worshippers should be aligned, not neutral. If you look at their themes, they are definitely biased to one side or the other. While we can all agree that the alignment system is greatly flawed, these two guilds really should fall under good/evil, not neutral.

User avatar
Redblade
Beginner
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Aug 2020 18:51

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Redblade » 09 Sep 2020 14:25

Amberlee wrote:
09 Sep 2020 14:03
Redblade wrote:
09 Sep 2020 12:48
Amberlee wrote:
08 Sep 2020 18:47


Which is why I added all except Worshippers on both evil and good.
Not worshippers though they are inherently good.
They are run by a goodie council and are an extension of a good guild.
Worshippers are not inherently good! They can be as evil as they like. I can make my Worshipper as evil as I see fit, as long as they respect the rules of the guild.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are flavoured that way that many Occupational good-aligned guilds restrict their members from being a Warlock. You're saying Warlocks are open to both good and evil. That's true - technically speaking. Perhaps then see if you know many good Warlocks and ask why. Or why not. :)
And yet they are under the complete control of a goodie guild.
And if you don't see the problem with that then you need to go sit in the corner.
Time out for you.
So what's the complete control? :)
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

User avatar
Redblade
Beginner
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Aug 2020 18:51

Re: Master of all trades, but jack of none?

Post by Redblade » 09 Sep 2020 14:27

Anfalas wrote:
09 Sep 2020 14:10
Redblade wrote:
09 Sep 2020 12:48
Amberlee wrote:
08 Sep 2020 18:47


Which is why I added all except Worshippers on both evil and good.
Not worshippers though they are inherently good.
They are run by a goodie council and are an extension of a good guild.
Worshippers are not inherently good! They can be as evil as they like. I can make my Worshipper as evil as I see fit, as long as they respect the rules of the guild.
Warlocks, on the other hand, are flavoured that way that many Occupational good-aligned guilds restrict their members from being a Warlock. You're saying Warlocks are open to both good and evil. That's true - technically speaking. Perhaps then see if you know many good Warlocks and ask why. Or why not. :)
Actually Redblade, this is not 100% correct. The same thing you said about good-aligned occ with warlocks can be said about evil-aligned occ and worshippers. Several evil occ guilds restrict from being a worshipper.

There are restrictions on Worshippers that are definitely biased towards good.

Based on Genesis current alignment system, both Warlocks and Worshippers should be aligned, not neutral. If you look at their themes, they are definitely biased to one side or the other. While we can all agree that the alignment system is greatly flawed, these two guilds really should fall under good/evil, not neutral.
I agree, your point on the other side of the table is fair. Perhaps then EW and Warlocks should be aligned?
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/