The rise of the Nameless Horror!

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Should the Khiraa re-open 20+ years after the fact?

No, it would hurt the game!
16
47%
No, keep Genesis as it is, I'm afraid of change!
1
3%
Yes, this sounds like a good addition to Genesis and could induce future rejuvenation of the Raumdor-domain!
8
24%
Yes, any guild that encourages and enables teaming is a welcome and refreshing addition to the donut!
9
26%
 
Total votes: 34

Rache
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Re: The rise of the Nameless Horror!

Post by Rache » 10 Jan 2021 19:41

Redblade wrote:
10 Jan 2021 19:20
Cherek wrote:
10 Jan 2021 18:21
It takes _decades_ to max out in some guilds? Which guilds are those? Let me know and I'll move them to the top of the "to be closed"-list :)

No, I don't have such a list. So don't worry. But I really do not think it should take decades to max out anything in Genesis. Not even years.
Guilds where your special ability's power is directly proportional to your guild xp? Guilds where you lose your special ability's power over time unless you restore it on regular basis? :) yeah, that kind of guilds. I suggest moving them to the top of the "to be recoded"-list. And then moving the list to the top of "to do"-list. Looking forward to it
Not every thread needs to turn into a Redblade whine-thread. Everyone agrees Rangers are underpowered and have needed a recode for the better part of two decades. Now, stop derailing.

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Redblade
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Re: The rise of the Nameless Horror!

Post by Redblade » 10 Jan 2021 20:20

Rache wrote:
10 Jan 2021 19:41
Not every thread needs to turn into a Redblade whine-thread. Everyone agrees Rangers are underpowered and have needed a recode for the better part of two decades. Now, stop derailing.
Oh, I've been keeping my mouth shut for several years and only speaking in game :)
Seems whining is what works these days, thought I'd give it a go! :D But you're right, I am derailng... a thread where the administration said they don't want the Khiraa for now and which evolved into a topic about playerbase. I'll stop, if it bothers you so :)

P.S.: Not speaking only about Rangers, if you read carefully :) Only voicing that perhaps instead new guilds, we could make the old ones work.
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

Nerull
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Re: The rise of the Nameless Horror!

Post by Nerull » 10 Jan 2021 20:54

I would also add into what Rache earlier said regarding why it would, or could succeed:

Initial recruitment / success of membership depends often on recruitment policies, restrictions etc.

To ensure higher playerbase/membership, one could explore to keep the first parts of a guild free to join (still under the scrutiny of guild leadership) so ensure some rp and standard parities, a pool that could be elevated to higher positions / functions within the guild itself.

Not unlike sohm vs wohs, or DA mercenaries vs soldiers,

Many ways to Rome.

Thalric
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Re: The rise of the Nameless Horror!

Post by Thalric » 10 Jan 2021 21:54

This is course requires that the leadership is able to perform and encourage roleplay.
Mostly, becoming a roleplay guild requires that the top takes the lead in that.

If that doesn't happen from the beginning, it is often too late.
In my eyes is also takes people of various kinds to run a RP guild, to ensure success.
Some from different playergroups of the game is preferred. That way the chance is that more people will see it as an option and feel welcome.

Rache
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Re: The rise of the Nameless Horror!

Post by Rache » 11 Jan 2021 00:48

Nerull wrote:
10 Jan 2021 20:54
I would also add into what Rache earlier said regarding why it would, or could succeed:

Initial recruitment / success of membership depends often on recruitment policies, restrictions etc.

To ensure higher playerbase/membership, one could explore to keep the first parts of a guild free to join (still under the scrutiny of guild leadership) so ensure some rp and standard parities, a pool that could be elevated to higher positions / functions within the guild itself.

Not unlike sohm vs wohs, or DA mercenaries vs soldiers,

Many ways to Rome.
I think that's actually a great idea, and would give players a taste of the guild and the opportunity to progress further if both parties think it's a fit. I like it!

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nils
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Re: The rise of the Nameless Horror!

Post by nils » 11 Jan 2021 01:12

Zhar,
You think the days of the Khiraa are (sadly) over, and that is of course an opinion. One you’re much welcome to have. Your personal preference to an “evil/neutral ranger-style guild” is already met – you’d know them as the Fire Knives. A sneaky, backstabbing bunch with a certain fondness for concoctions and treatchery – All traits they share with their counterparts lurking in Ithilien. No, seriously, the Fire Knives fit the description “rogue guild”, much like the Rangers in Middle Earth.

You also claim we have too many undead and spellcasters. If one is too many, you obviously view the undead as something not welcome in Genesis. Perhaps you’re thinking of the upcoming Cult of Chemosh, which is now in its 11th year of development. I mean, that must be longest ongoing project in genesis history. At some point other, more realizable, projects much assume priority. The plug should have been pulled on that one. In all fairness, while I think the CoCs are interesting they do smell of “Lichdom” to me. Liches don’t cooperate, and they certainly don’t share power. I see a very solitaire guild, and that is the very opposite of the Khiraa.

I do, however, agree that Genesis has too many “nuke-nuke-nuke”-type spellcasters (they’re all based on spells inflicting direct damage), but you won’t find any “nukes” amongst the Lichpriests of the Khiraa. That’s not their style, and without going too much into detail on the tactics of the guild, I know of no other alternative and such it shouldn’t be discarded as “just another caster”.

Skythus,
I’m going to completely ignore your inane option, but you actually raise the most valid reason for leaving the Khiraa buried and never reopened; their original creator, Sarr, left Genesis and took his code over to a now pretty much barren mud (Demon’s gate). The whys and the whats is still obscured from us mere mortals, but a lack of consent from Sarr and the fact that it’s in a way his intellectual property is maybe the most troublesome part of the whole debate in my eyes.

I am also going to ignore Varian as I see no constructive input to further the discussion and he frankly seems smitten with the distrust that runs deep in every aspect of the development of Middle Earth domain, forcing him to instantly come to the conclusion that I bear ill will. Of course I fucking spoke with Nerull prior to posting it.

Thalric,
If you do some forum archaeology, you’ll find posts and other information about the Army of Angmar. The general trend would be that the members (or ex-members) would complain that it flat out sucked/wasn’t playable, and that the wizards (Petros, Gorboth, Arman) would say it’s balanced. In fact I remember Gorboth saying the Army of Angmar was the most perfectly balanced guild in Genesis (!).

Anyway, this went on for.. Oh I dunno, I found one post dating back to 2011 where Petros eluded to some secret tactic that nobody had heard of enabling the unlocking of hidden combat aid making the Army of Angmar so batshit it had to be nerfed. I have no idea what he was talking about, so I chalked it down to delusion and bias conjuring information not rooted in reality.

Turning the clock forward to 2019 you’ll find Arman doing revision to layman guilds, where he must obviously have found what all the players were talking about, and subsequently not only adjusting the layman, but also the occupational branch of the Army of Angmar – the guild is now very playable, but while it still loses it’s biggest player to the guilds with higher offensive combat aid, I now have zero complaints. It’s a very good guild – albeit pretty desolate despite these facts.

Which brings me to my point – I have been shot down before, and then after considerable debate, lobbying or compromise having it granted years down the line - so no, I don’t agree that a no necessarily and absolutely means no. Nor do I have to.

Redblade,
Nobody disagrees with you in regards to the Rangers. I too think the Rangers need attention, but this thread is not about them. You do however bring up a nice term for the absolute best argument for why the Khiraa has a place in Genesis – “local balance”. When I speak of Calia I mean the Elemental Clerics and their loyal and obedient aides: the Warriors and the Worshippers. You put someone with actual skill at the helm of the Clerics and the world will burn if he or she wills it so. They have no weakness, no natural enemy, and their creators have bent the rules in such a brilliant way they even come out “balanced” in the eyes of the Arch of Balance. In the same way the Warlocks brought change to magical laymans as a whole, the Khiraa is what can potentially shift the power towards something resembling balance.
Local balance, I like it.

Arman,
As stated above, the CoCs have been in development for so long that excluding any option on the grounds that it thematically overlaps with a guild potentially opening in 2030 is simply not valid. At some point the plug must be pulled. Some would say said plug should have been pulled half a decade ago.

Your reluctance to combine layman and occupational and your liking to “free combination of guilds” is well known. I respect your view here, but your view is in direct conflict with 1) the trend of magic guild creation as a whole and 2) the Khiraa’s potential ability to actually exist as a balancing act towards Calia. Also, I disagree on a personal level. I generally hate not dedicating to one concept, and the very thought of a death knight/pirate or death knight/minstrel really turns the stomach. Just.. gross! Eww!

Cherek and the rest,
In sum you bring up the other most valid argument, the one you’ve been repeating every time I’ve realized it’s been a while since I made an attempt to persuade you that reopening the Khiraa is a brilliant idea. I vowed to persist in doing this at least once a year, so if nothing else – keep your ears peeled in 2022!

Nobody can promise that the Khiraa will re-inflate our playerbase, but I could give at least five names of people who’d drop everything and line up to offer up their mortality in Raumdor. I can envision a couple returning from slumber too.
Will they stay though? Will the guildhalls go desolate once a future creation promises greener pastures or the hype simply dies down? Nobody knows. Stands to reason its’ popularity will drop though, I admit.

Currently (10.01.2021) the polls show 11 against and 12 for reopening. I read this as at least 50% of the playerbase think it’s a good idea and I’ll childishly assume the 11 votes against are scared Calians determined to keep any potential threat buried.

For personal preference aside, that is what it all boils down to – A raumdorian powerhouse, a Yin to the Calian Yang.
If you’re right about the hype-trend, the Khiraa would pose no threat if left inactive 6 months down the road. It would even, by its existence alone, legitimize Calia’s rule bending. And factoring that in - would it really matter if the guild is populated by only a few or even left empty?

Lastly, the intellectual property-part really does bother me and hence I really do like the idea of updating the lore of Raumdor where the original Cult is left in the ground and replaced by a new variant. “Phoenixification”, I think I called it. It could fuel a fire of creation in the domain as a whole!

It would require a lot more creative work (writing) and thus a more work-intensive undertaking. Because, as you broken recordly keep repeating, in the end it always boils down to man power/staffing. I would offer my services towards it, given a go-ahead.

A reopening would not only be a low effort, highly desirable and a much welcomed opportunity, it would also be realizable within our lifetime! One caveat here though: it must occupy all three slots. Anything else is an insult.
Last edited by nils on 11 Jan 2021 01:15, edited 1 time in total.
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

Greneth
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Re: The rise of the Nameless Horror!

Post by Greneth » 11 Jan 2021 01:13

I voted no to the occupational Khiraa. However, if a racial or layman option opened? That would change to a yes instantly. As much fun and nostalgia, there is surrounding the guild I just dont want to see more occupational guilds atm. I think they would serve as a much better racial or layman option and give a lot more fun guild combinations.

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varian
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Re: The rise of the Nameless Horror!

Post by varian » 11 Jan 2021 02:35

Ahh well Nils... you go live your best life.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings so badly that you have to resort to insults and personal attacks.

Wasn't my intention.

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Zhar
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Re: The rise of the Nameless Horror!

Post by Zhar » 11 Jan 2021 15:06

To clarify some things. I voted 'yes' in the poll. I think Khiraa is an amazing guild and I really enjoyed it. However, I do not think it'll do much good to re-open it because:
1. I think that it would funnel people out of other elite guilds instead of Mercs and SoHM, which would not be a good thing.
2. Nerull did say porting it to new codebase is doable but I'm not sure how long that could potentially take and if doing that would put some other projects on hold (and maybe we would be better off with them instead of Khiraa).

In other words, I'd like to see Khiraa re-opened, but at the same time I don't really believe it would have as good and profound effects on the game as you advertise and might in fact turn out to be detrimental.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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Cherek
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Re: The rise of the Nameless Horror!

Post by Cherek » 11 Jan 2021 15:26

I'll also clarify that I am not saying no to the idea of a Khiraa or Khiraa-style guild, and I am not saying we should never make any new occupational guilds. Who knows how the situation will look a year from now, or three years from now, but right NOW it's a no to both Khiraa and other new occupational guild projects. I do encourage wizards to create layman, craft and racial guilds.

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