The case for closure – fighter guilds

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Which guilds should close? (pick two options)

The Gladiators of Athas -> layman guild
11
26%
The Army of Angmar -> layman guild
2
5%
The Calian Warriors -> layman guild
2
5%
The Knights of Solamnia -> closed
0
No votes
The Army of Darkness -> layman guild
5
12%
The Dragon Order -> layman guild
4
10%
The Neidar Clan -> layman guild
1
2%
The Shadow Union -> closed
7
17%
The Dragonarmies (red and blue) -> closed (or merged!)
8
19%
The Mercenaries -> closed
2
5%
 
Total votes: 42

Dan
Wanderer
Posts: 65
Joined: 25 Jan 2015 10:38

Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Dan » 20 Jan 2021 13:08

It doesn't have to be enforced in a big way - just a log entry to admins and a warning echoed to player 'You start to feel restless standing in the same room for so long'

The actual enforcing is not the issue - soft warnings like that and a rule that prevents it should make all law abiding citizens do as they are supposed - to logoff when not playing.

The issue is we skewer all statistics and a ton of other issues with the idle being allowed today.

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Cherek
Site Admin
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Joined: 04 Mar 2010 04:36

Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Cherek » 20 Jan 2021 13:34

I agree that the statistics become less reliable when players idle 24/7. Some guilds may seem quite active, while in fact it's just one player idling for a year :) But... is that a reason enough to revert the rule? Obviously some players enjoy being able to idle, and we moved away from that rule because both many players (and some wizards) did not feel it was needed when EQ started to save on a person.

Drazson
Hero
Posts: 408
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Drazson » 20 Jan 2021 15:24

Redblade wrote:
20 Jan 2021 07:46
As a player, I often found most fun in the game at the guild application process. It allowed me to fully create my character, someone finally asked all the questions I had to roleplay out (How old are you? Where were you born? What do you stand for? What do you seek?). I found these meetings with often either Council members or designated people within various guilds the best player experience I can get.
Same, I love that part, probably the best portion of Genesis!
Redblade wrote:
20 Jan 2021 07:46
I simply set my mind on joining the guild, roleplayed my very best in the character and didn't stop until I got in. I think the little extra effort going through application process is worth it :)
Here exists a small segment which you are leaving out, which to me makes ALL the difference between being able or unable to join a guild, that being the path from 0 to being accepted as a tuvale/trainee/seeker/whatnot. An intern anyway :D

In my opinion, some kinds applications require you to lie in character to explain why you'd want to join. These make me think that applications can sometimes just be "Hello, I want to join you! Wanna meet and chat about it?" "Yea, I will be glad to get to know you!" where you talk with the person interested a bit to make sure they're sensible, fun, whatever you need.

There a couple of cases that more or less boil down to the concept being either rediculous to anybody not being a member or just supposed to not be something you randomly join whoever you are.

I have a particular problem with EW regarding that. Who the fuck cares about the Elementals? Do you know how many gods and shit there are? What am I supposed to say, I was travelling in Calia and felt the wind and that got me wet? I've said again that I feel Calia is very weak overall but at least with Calian Warriors you can go as a Merc that is interested in joining a band of warriors, quite simple and generic and, despite being an occupational, free to join as a Follower and you get picked up from there.

The other is SU. The concept of SU is of course vague to me as a non-SU but I think I'd like to be picked up and trained to be sleek af at some point in life. Maybe I'm wrong about the particular guild but I kind of doubt it makes sense to them to walk up and ask if they want a new member. I understand that they are more open with foreigners than before but still.

A good type of example had been MM at least in my case. No bullshit (imagine having to explain the fine details regarding Liar Scribe to persuade them - quite fun?!), few questions asked about whether I knew what I was getting into, boom. I hope the process hasn't changed, it enabled me to have a GREAT experience :)


P.S. Mostly out of OOC context I gather that people might be weary of spy alts. I am not aware whether it causes rejections or the need for more detailed pleading to join some guilds as a trainee, I hope not. Overall, I think we're overestimating the importance of our "secrets".

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Zhar
Wizard
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Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Zhar » 20 Jan 2021 17:04

Most guild secrets have been in circulation for ages.

In any case, I too find the application process to be fun and engaging, the problems arise when you can't really do it due to absent, inactive and/or uncaring leadership in the guilds.

Personally I see no reason why joining a guild and advancing through some lower ranks couldn't be handled by NPCs. When you want to become full member and reach higher position in the guild that's when the player factor should come in.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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Alisa
Hero
Posts: 392
Joined: 16 Nov 2014 23:10

Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Alisa » 20 Jan 2021 19:49

Drazson wrote:
20 Jan 2021 15:24

I have a particular problem with EW regarding that. Who the fuck cares about the Elementals? Do you know how many gods and shit there are? What am I supposed to say, I was travelling in Calia and felt the wind and that got me wet? I've said again that I feel Calia is very weak overall but at least with Calian Warriors you can go as a Merc that is interested in joining a band of warriors, quite simple and generic and, despite being an occupational, free to join as a Follower and you get picked up from there.
You're right.

Who the fuck would care about gods in a guild of worshipping the gods.

Jesus.

Drazson
Hero
Posts: 408
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Drazson » 20 Jan 2021 19:57

But before I get to be in your guild I am - obviously I hope - not in the guild. Of course Elemental Worshippers care and Worship. No layman Jack, though, has no IC way to care unless he is very specifically a Calian Warrior maybe, someone native. I already explained that though and you are trying to win it over with theatricism.

All I'm saying is just to keep the annoying-ness to a minimum before actually taking in someone for training. Then train them as hard as the game allows, I'm sure I've through more intense stuff and that's not my problem.
Last edited by Drazson on 20 Jan 2021 20:01, edited 2 times in total.

Targun
Adept
Posts: 109
Joined: 21 Oct 2010 01:31

Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Targun » 20 Jan 2021 20:00

Redblade, Drazson (regarding thrill of recruitment)

This is not my point. My point is about guilds being inactive, thus unable to perform their function and being valid choices for characters. My experiences are similar to yours - vastly positive. Every time I applied to a guild, I enjoyed the very aspects you mention. These are certainly some of my most fond memories on Genesis... This being said, every time I was applying to a guild that guild was fairly active.
Zhar wrote: In any case, I too find the application process to be fun and engaging, the problems arise when you can't really do it due to absent, inactive and/or uncaring leadership in the guilds.
Zhar summs it up perfectly here.
Amberlee wrote: This is the way.

Unfortunately nowdays many are just entitled brats who put in a minimal to zero effort :(
Really, Amberlee? People are entitled brats, because they cannot join and progress in the guilds that are inactive? And that's the way you chose to put it? <thumbs down>

---------------

As for questionable guild management and attitude - it is a cherry on the the cake. It's something that can (not saying it will, but it can) turn already difficult process - due to guilds being inactive (or on its own) - into even less enjoyable experience. It by no means is the cake in the whole argument, quite the opposite.

Some sort of semi-auto join is required to repopulate the guilds and make them available options when there are no active councils. It doesn't mean councils lose power over the guilds, cannot give tasks or say "thank you" to the characters that display 'yo momma is fat' attitude. It only means they have to be somewhat active to do that and if they're not - the code fills in the void and people can still pursue these career paths for their characters.

It's as simple as that. No shenanigans. Just basic respect towards people's invested time, chance for them realistically enjoy all what Genesis offers and a second life for guilds that became desolated.
Last edited by Targun on 20 Jan 2021 20:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Alisa
Hero
Posts: 392
Joined: 16 Nov 2014 23:10

Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Alisa » 20 Jan 2021 20:01

Drazson wrote:
20 Jan 2021 19:57
But before I get to be in your guild I am - obviously I hope - not in the guild. Of course Elemental Worshippers care and Worship. No layman Jack, though, has no IC way to care unless he is very specifically a Calian Warrior maybe, someone native. I already explained that though and you are trying to win it over with theatricism.
Yes, there is no way to RP before joining a guild.
Oh, and btw, its free-to-join startup too.

Perhaps leave old grudges, and update your info?

Drazson
Hero
Posts: 408
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Drazson » 20 Jan 2021 20:10

Last time I checked I had to write an application after completing the instruments, I will update my info. I hope that weird syntax for the coin is more lenient by now.

The entire post I wrote, which I by now assume you didn't read, was about how for certain guilds this is more difficult to do without meta-lying cause your character has nothing to do with that shit normally. I also gave an example of another guild that could, if they wanted, torture the player to allow them to join but instead are sensible and say "hop in bro we'll torture you in training, in character".

There are no grudges. I have had to study Calia's lore which I dislike a lot but I have no problem with you or the temple.

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Redblade
Adventurer
Posts: 99
Joined: 10 Aug 2020 18:51

Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Redblade » 20 Jan 2021 23:26

Drazson wrote:
20 Jan 2021 19:57
But before I get to be in your guild I am - obviously I hope - not in the guild. Of course Elemental Worshippers care and Worship. No layman Jack, though, has no IC way to care unless he is very specifically a Calian Warrior maybe, someone native. I already explained that though and you are trying to win it over with theatricism.

All I'm saying is just to keep the annoying-ness to a minimum before actually taking in someone for training. Then train them as hard as the game allows, I'm sure I've through more intense stuff and that's not my problem.
I will dare to oppose this. Were I to create a caster character, it is likely that they would go through the Academy. Specifically the Academy of Elemental Arts. There's a very good connection right there for anyone who decides to try EW.
Basic scenario (short): I woke in Sparkle, Carlsan told me to go to Gelan, I decided magic is the way and joined Academy, I want to know more about elemental magic! That <spell> of the <cool Element> was so cool, if only there was a place I could learn more... (meets a Worshipper, a Cleric, anyone who actually talks to them, this step is optional but nice for rp)... "Oh wait! There is a place to learn more about Elements!", walks into the Temple, reads Calian lore, reads up on EW/EC, the rest you can describe just as well as I can. Simple and very straightforward motivation with zero meta-lying in character. :)

Targun (and Zhar): Now I understand. Thank you for clearing this up for me :) In this sense, I would be more tempted to agree.
Auta i lómë, Aurë entuluva!
The Night is passing, Day shall come again!

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