The case for closure – fighter guilds

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Which guilds should close? (pick two options)

The Gladiators of Athas -> layman guild
11
26%
The Army of Angmar -> layman guild
2
5%
The Calian Warriors -> layman guild
2
5%
The Knights of Solamnia -> closed
0
No votes
The Army of Darkness -> layman guild
5
12%
The Dragon Order -> layman guild
4
10%
The Neidar Clan -> layman guild
1
2%
The Shadow Union -> closed
7
17%
The Dragonarmies (red and blue) -> closed (or merged!)
8
19%
The Mercenaries -> closed
2
5%
 
Total votes: 42

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nils
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The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by nils » 12 Jan 2021 23:51

So lately the same argument has been is repeated over and over – we need fewer occupational guilds, lest we end up in a reality where there’s an occupational guild per person. Guilds in Genesis define a character for life or exist either as a stepping stone towards something greater or just a source of skills needed to kill stuff.

There is no ideal way to close a guild, and any choice will be an unpopular one. I guess it’s time for a popularity contest!

Try not to vote with your character in mind, but rather the game. If one has to go – which one can we live without? I’ll make an attempt to argue why every guild should close. Obviously, staying completely objective here is an exercise in futility, but I'll make an honest attempt at it.

I’ll start with the fighter guilds. Rogue and magic to be revealed.

The Gladiators of Athas
It’s technically sound, offers some nice skills, is free to join and has a long history in Genesis. I fondly remember charge-killing Shale or Goliath for that killer combination of the bloody steal axe and the mighty dwarven cleaver back in the nineties. However, for the longest time I’ve found the concept of free roaming gladiators completely whack. A gladiator is a slave, kept in a cage and the only time he breathes fresh air is when he’s forced to fight to the death in the arena. It’s paradoxical to the core, and that’s why it should be shut down or continue on its’ mockery of an existence as a layman guild with every ability slashed in half.

The Army of Angmar
Ah, my beloved AA. A funny guild with a long history and amazing skillset. Tears have been shed over its closure in the past. Being the only ‘tanky’ option for evils, it has secured the soloist where company were none to be found. However, due to the same ‘tanky’ nature (and despite its recent addition of a tank rotator) its members flee en mass as they reach a certain size and other ‘apex’ guilds offer more offensive grunt with two-handers. With its guildhalls empty, its design outdated/old fashioned and its code an absolute horror show, the guild should serve Genesis one last time by being sacrificed on the altar of progress and shut down, or continue on its legacy in a diminished capacity as a free to join layman, with tank rotation.

The Calian Warriors
The most powerful occupational fighter guild in Genesis. Its history and legacy as old as the before mentioned guilds the Calian Warriors offer cooperation, tank rotation and a good natured fun. When active, a group of Calians matches a typhoon when it comes to destruction. leaving the game physically smaller for the others trying to carve out some progress. However, the guild’s mechanisms for control are manipulated to ensure it stays in a certain groups hands, even when the members remain in slumber. And in slumber they have remained for most of the time lately. The guild has outlived its popularity and such it is time to close the Calian Warriors as an occupational guild and offer its abilities as a layman with tank rotation.

The Knights of Solamnia
A solid guild, a staple of Genesis, its history and legacy go back to way before many of Genesis’ current players were but a glimmer in the mailman’s eyes. It is deeply anchored in Krynn lore and offers roleplay opportunities equal to that of the traditional Paladin in any roleplaying game. Some would argue that due to some of its core abilities, it will always be victorious in a duel of equals, but even with its skillset its popularity has declined steadily despite its members’ valiant efforts to ease up on the demands of squirehood. Perhaps it’s a testament to their failure, or perhaps it’s simply an old fashioned cookie cutter role nobody wants to assume anymore. Whatever the case, it’s time to close the Knights of Solamnia. And while the three previous guilds are eligible as laymans, I think it would add to insult to offer up such a prestigious guild as anything but an occupational guild.

The Army of Darkness
The ogres. A hilarious experience, both to play and for others to encounter, when done with immersion (it does get old though. Fairly quick too, I must add). The physical attributes of an ogre and its relative ease in acquiring a full set of (fitting) armours and weaponry has the potential to turn even the frailest of new players into a force to be reckoned with. However, it’s inherent design as a speed-grinder paired with the slowest hitting and least accurate special attack in the game calls for the closure of the ogres. They might continue to add hilarity to the game as a race/layman though, but in a diminished state and some easement of their restrictions.

The Dragon Order
With its friendly natured, philosophical approach to life as a whole, the Monks offer a way of playing unlike any other. Their player vs player-restrictions make them a safe choice for those uninterested in such mechanics, and with their knowledge of anatomy they offer ways to subdue foes who otherwise would stand victorious. Their legacy stretches farther back than many, and players who consider themselves Kahedans still exist this day. However, the guild in its current state does not promote speed of growth as long as it remains a bare knuckle fighter, and with popularity ever dwindling its time to close off the occupational branch for good and offer it up as a layman option only in order to keep the roleplaying aspect of the Monk available to those in want.

The Neidar Clan
The only (real) option for dwarves in their current state (see stat distribution). The stubbornness of the dwarves harnessed to aid them in combat as damage absorbing rocks one could argue has its place. It is a good natured, solid guild yearning for a blessing from above to enable the Neidar Clan to actually be ferocious fighters in offence as well. Shame on the immortals for keeping the dwarf in such a sorry state, even after ‘the reign of dex’. For as long as the dwarves remain so needlessly penalized, the guild suffers from unpopularity as most realize the obviousness of the truth; In genesis, dwarves suck! Close the guild, I say.

The Shadow Union
Swept in esoteric secrecy in the lands of Avenir, the Shadow Union offers unique roleplaying opportunities, absolute immersion topped with a skillset in battle envied by most. Their guildhall is filled with history known only to a few, and if the walls surrounding the baths in Sybarus could talk.. I’ll leave it at that. However, the clique that is the Shadow Union is tight-nit, stagnant and unwelcome of newcomers. They hardly interact with the outside world, and such the guild only exist to serve a few. In order to secure ‘elite’ members in other guilds, to shun arrogance and promote social interaction, the Shadow Union should be closed down for good. A layman option would, like the Knights, be an insult to all those who love the guild in its present state.

The Dragonarmies, red and blue
The apex evil fighter guild of Genesis. The ‘obvious’ option for those looking for a military style guild with a strict chain of command offering bang-for-buck offensive power. A popular option most of the time, but it has also suffered periods of inactivity. Considering said popularity I think they are the least likely candidate for closure, but here goes: The closure of one or both of the Dragonarmies would serve to spread out players on the remaining guilds. The Dragon part of the armies is a gimmicky joke and serve mostly as sky-taxies for those in possession of a horn. The two branches are also supposed to be in conflict, but instead they mostly get along and see each other as allies. Shut the guilds down, or in the very least, combine the two – they are allies with different color shirts.

The Mercenaries
For any of the occupational laymans to be embraced fully, a vanilla option with the ability to hide its title must exist. If anything, the mercenaries would do good with a slight upgrade to their special attack. Closing the mercenaries would not add to the game. I see no scenario where this serves as anything but masochism, but I’ll give it a go: One could argue that by removing the free-to-join option favored by new players, it forces them (or even oldies for that sake) to make more active guild choices instead of just going the safe route. There, close them!
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

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Redblade
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Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Redblade » 13 Jan 2021 01:50

I would take a different approach. Where you say "this suck, let's close it/reduce it" I would often seek the approach "this sucks! let's fix it! let's make it better!".

Also, the argument you keep hearing in other threads from administration was "We do not need more occupational guilds now." (as a result of not being able to fill them with active players). Which is significantly different from "We need less of them." in my eyes. I would really hate to see any of these guilds go. I've met dedicated roleplayers in every of those guilds.

I also must add that I don't agree with you in some opinions stated. Calians are fairly active and all Council members wake on regular basis. Knights in the past months experienced a growth in the ranks as far as I know. Gladiators are a good guild, so just change the name? Challengers of Athas? Duelers? Monks need a recode. Neidar Clan is a decent option for the dwarves, that would have little else to go to. This in my eyes is a reason to keep them open, not close them. I could go on, but there's little point. All summed up, not sure I agree and can vote for any options. I do not think this is a good way to go. Just my opinion though :)
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Drazson
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Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Drazson » 13 Jan 2021 02:00

You are trying to seperate naturally intertwinning topics and that's a tactic to construct/force decisions, rather than arrive in them. Complimenting that, your options in these polls are quite arbitrary, especially the one regarding Khiira I assumed was an attempt to troll rather than poll. Well, your poll your choice eh?

I guess the attempt is to keep hitting till the resistances break, but maybe you should surrender hope at long last.


Otherwise... I agree with Redblade, it would be sad to see guilds go. HOWEVER I would mostly consider Ogres and Calians.

Especially Calian Warriors, in my opinion and probably influenced a lot by personal preference, are not a solid guild. They carry bags full of guns and have very unpolished lore in my opinion, and they hold a great pack tactics mechanic/theme hostage. I can see a Calian racial remain in Calia and the warband mechanics placed as a layman (heck it should be an occupational level of theme though), preferably in another domain (Khalakhor makes a lot of sense). I would assume this would be more work than supporting them bug-wise instead, so I'm not sure what's the goal here really.

Hektor
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Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Hektor » 13 Jan 2021 11:25

I believe that diversity and options makes Genesis stronger. Lets have more players instead of fewer guilds. - Keep pushing for player numbers and we can keep and expand on the great guilds we have and hopefully see new and interesting concepts emerge from the volunteer and creative workforce that dedicate their free time and interest here.

Genesis is a great game and a kick-ass community. Lets build from that rather than tearing down.

Up and atom!
Lawful evil - conform or die.

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nils
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Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by nils » 13 Jan 2021 13:55

Dudes.. This was an exercise in arguing for something I don't believe in. Some would call it playing devil's advocate. I don't want to close any guilds any more than you do, and for the record: I think Hektor is right.
Nil Mortifi Sine Lucre

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Zhar
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Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Zhar » 13 Jan 2021 13:56

I would not go as far as closing any existing and well-established guilds. If anything I think that some of them could be adjusted to possess both occupational and layman options (like AA). This could be made with Gladiators (satisfying decades long outcry for Weaponmasters) for example.

To enhance roleplay new layman guilds could be introduced to existing OCC guilds too. I think that Morgul Mages could use some form of layman option (similarly to EC/EW) and so on.
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Cherek
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Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Cherek » 13 Jan 2021 14:16

Just to be clear, I don't think I said we should close any guilds? All I have been saying is that I don't think we should start any NEW occupational guild project right now, except the two already in progress. I did say we already have too many occupational guilds (compared to the number of players) for all of them to be active, and that is certainly true. The best solution is of course to get more players, as Hektor said, but we also need to see what we can do to make the game more fun for the number of players we have right now. Our playerbase has been quite stable the last couple of years, and if the game becomes more fun the current playerbase, chances are the player of numbers will rise because the game is more fun. So, it goes both ways.

Now, _closing_ guilds is in my opinion not the solution in any case, and I generally don't think we should close anything unless it's broken beyond repair. I do think there are a small numbers of guilds that _might_, and I say _might_ be better off as layman guilds. Now, there is currently no actual plan in motion to do this, it's a hyphothetical discussion at this point. But I do think turning some occupational guilds into layman guilds would mean the remaining occupational guilds will get a few more members each on average, which is good, AND we get more layman options, which I think we need as well. So it's definitely worth considering. But closing guilds? No, I don't think we should do that.

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varian
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Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by varian » 13 Jan 2021 17:02

Cherek wrote:
13 Jan 2021 14:16
Just to be clear, I don't think I said we should close any guilds? All I have been saying is that I don't think we should start any NEW occupational guild project right now, except the two already in progress. I did say we already have too many occupational guilds (compared to the number of players) for all of them to be active, and that is certainly true. The best solution is of course to get more players, as Hektor said, but we also need to see what we can do to make the game more fun for the number of players we have right now. Our playerbase has been quite stable the last couple of years, and if the game becomes more fun the current playerbase, chances are the player of numbers will rise because the game is more fun. So, it goes both ways.

Now, _closing_ guilds is in my opinion not the solution in any case, and I generally don't think we should close anything unless it's broken beyond repair. I do think there are a small numbers of guilds that _might_, and I say _might_ be better off as layman guilds. Now, there is currently no actual plan in motion to do this, it's a hyphothetical discussion at this point. But I do think turning some occupational guilds into layman guilds would mean the remaining occupational guilds will get a few more members each on average, which is good, AND we get more layman options, which I think we need as well. So it's definitely worth considering. But closing guilds? No, I don't think we should do that.
I am generally not a fan of closing guilds.

After all, look at all the fuss nostalgia for the Khiraa has caused after a couple decades have passed.

I would rather look at fixing/improving existing guilds than remove them. Might some work better as layman options? Hmm... maybe... but I'm not sure I would go down that path.

I think a lack of good layman options is a really huge issue. If time and effort is going to be put into guild code, maybe introducing new layman ideas would be a better way to spend our time.

I would love to see Nils come up with a poll list of new layman guild ideas that PLAYERS would like to see, and based on that popularity, see if we can find any wizards with talent and interest to code the winner :)

I also think that our craft guild slots were a great idea when they were introduced years ago, but there is some serious untapped potential going on there. For what it is worth, I can say I have spoken with admin about potentially doing something there already (with what I feel was a positive reaction), and hopefully it is an idea/project that can be worked on after I get some other priority issues dealt with first.

Nerull
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Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Nerull » 13 Jan 2021 17:47

Maybe not relevant, or on the sideline, but since all full vampire prospects starts out as laymans, it is possible to remain in this position (though high risk). This adds +1 lay option to the game.

Furthermore, may add +1 layman elsewhere that is slightly under brainstorming.

So, this, if everything goes as planned, adds atleast +2 lay options to the game. Hopefully, it should help _some_, but probably not thematically accessible for all players (unless they like to live on the edge - I like that such dilemmas are on the shoulders of players rather than artificial barrriers).

Let's see what future brings.

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Skythus
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Re: The case for closure – fighter guilds

Post by Skythus » 13 Jan 2021 19:00

I wish there were more votes I could apply. While I do think certain guilds should be shut down for inactivity (or fixed) I also think that narrowing the options forces people to optimize. Merging the DA sounds like a no-brainer to me. WoHS manages three factions. Add Mace wielding DA and Axe wielding DA while you're at it. But who will code?

It would be interesting to have a claiming mechanism to the dead guilds. Maybe if a guild has no members awake in, say, two weeks, you could walk up and join for free.

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