layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

[Laurel]

minstrels would deny such a rule since ... always

[Zorath]

Yep, I know.
Maybe it just was an lame excuse then, ages ago when I heard it.
But in some way it makes sense to me, that a layman guild shouldnt have both.

[Amberlee]

There is no spoon..

[Bromen]

Pretty sure minstrels were implemented to fulfill the "bard" role in the game. Very versitile, but not great at anything in particular.

-B

[Rhaegar]

I thought there was some kind of rule, that if the layman guild have heal, they cannot have a offensive ability.

That is not true. And why did everyone forget about Thieves? Evil only but they're pretty damn awesome as an utility guild.

[Sharn]

That is not true. And why did everyone forget about Thieves? Evil only but they're pretty damn awesome as an utility guild.

Yeah! Hence the crowd of thieves.

I never said I'm leaving completely. Just that I'm going to try and think more before posting

Try HARDER. Please.

[Rhaegar]

Can't speak on anything else than my own experience. And as such, thieves are pretty damn good.
Autosneak is nice.
Backstab is nice.
Pickpocket is king.
Removing traps, lockpicking and keyring were useful on occasion.

[Sharn]

Autosneak is nice.

Agreed.
But...
I think that with layman stealth skills (sup journeyman) you are nowadays visible most of the times to both players and NPCs.
In the past with layman stealth skills you were pretty much invisible to most of the players.
Yes, you can improve your stealth skills with some items.
You can also do good damage with journeyman sword skill and a runed falchion.

I hope the issue with stealth will be looked into along with stealth guilds recode (rangers).

Backstab is nice.

1. When was the last time, you heard of someone being backstabbed?
2. When was the last time, you heard of someone saying backstab is any good?

Backstab is nice in the means of delivering poison.

But the effects of the poisons of the daggers I know of are laughable for players with average con.

Pickpocket is king.

3. When was the last time, you heard of something being stolen from a player?
4. When was the last time, you heard of something VALUABLE being stolen from a player?

5. Name few valuable items that can be stolen from either a player
...or an NPC that cannot be easily (or easier) collected by the means of killing the NPC or easily collected by other means?

Additionaly any thieves trying that are quickly discovered.
Rumour about a thief runs the whole community wihin days at most.
Packs are closed items hidden in packs.
Remember Abernomicon and Hisssssssssss?
Everyone knew about them and everyone was very careful.

Removing traps, lockpicking and keyring were useful on occasion.

6. Name few items that cannot be easily or easier collected without removing traps and lockpicking.

And the effect is: "Thief? What thief?"

Besides all that, thieves should be neutral in my opinion.

[Rhaegar]

Ad. Autosneak:
Thieves get sup craft s/h, and I tested it for a fact that even if you have sup prof awareness you won't see them 90% of the time.

Ad. Backstab:
Sure, the poisons from daggers aren't all that cool, but they are there, they add the additional scare factor too (if you're slowly but steadily losing health and fatigue during combat it's never good). Even if just to offset the regular healing it usually means you'll need a couple less hits to kill a big target.

Ad. Pickpocket:
Pickpocket doesn't have to be used to obtain something, you may as well use it to deny things (stealing the poisoned dagger from cook in haradrim camp, stealing potions from the big orc in orc camp so he can't heal, getting to Garren's chest without killing the poor chap etc.).

Ad. Rest:
This are very situational, but they sure helped me during questing and exploration.

Of course, it's going to be a lot harder to use the skills against players, but if you manage to do so, it can be a goddamn epic feat (like stealing components and potions from a morgul mage or a ranger).
In my opinion, the guild is worth joining even if just for autosneak and high trading, the rest is icing on the cake.

[Sharn]

Ad. Pickpocket:
Pickpocket doesn't have to be used to obtain something, you may as well use it to deny things (stealing the poisoned dagger from cook in haradrim camp, stealing potions from the big orc in orc camp so he can't heal, getting to Garren's chest without killing the poor chap etc.).

I used to kill Gorgun (JBS orc) quite often when I was veteran mercenary (wihout layman).
Couldnt master the JBS, though
Cook in haradrim camp...think I killed him when I was (the old) wanderer or so. Cant remember having any trouble with him.

So I assume both can be easily done without pickpocket.

You can get pickpocket skill from mercenaries...and I think even higher then thieves.

Dunno who is Garen

Of course, it's going to be a lot harder to use the skills against players, but if you manage to do so, it can be a goddamn epic feat (like stealing components and potions from a morgul mage or a ranger).

You can attack them too or just spit on them and if you will continue to do so...it can be a goddamn epic feat
You can even try to pickpocket them without skill, too. Might be epic as well.

In my opinion, the guild is worth joining even if just for autosneak and high trading, the rest is icing on the cake.

Smiths have high trading, too. No need to waste layman slot for that.

So it seems that just autosneak left...