layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

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Cherek
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Re: layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

Post by Cherek » 03 Feb 2011 13:21

Usually it is not possible to steal from NPCs who guard valuables or quest items. I think its pretty commong they dont even carry the thing at all and instead when they die the key "appears" in the corpse. But if you try to steal it, its not there because, well it isnt there.

Like you could think you can walk around stealing coins from NPCs to get money? Well you cant because they usually dont have coins on them until the die.

But I bet there also a number of NPCs that you can still steal from... but not many.

Thieves are yet another guild that has suffered from the increase of size in the game while the guild itself has remained. When people were much smaller both backstab and poisons were much more useful. With tons of con, like Sharn says, its not anymore. However there are still some fatigue poisons that can become serious problems even for big chars, so its not completely useless I would think.

Allthough layman guilds arent limited to superior journeyman skills. Thieves have higher skills that that, and so has many laymans. So thieves can sure use both their sneak and steal abilities. Especially if they are mercs and adapt it to sup guru I assume?

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Rhaegar
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Re: layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

Post by Rhaegar » 03 Feb 2011 13:32

As far as stealing coins go, you wouldn't believe how fast you can earn your living as a smallfry when you're a thief. A trip around Kabal (oh Grumbar, how I miss you and your platinum coins), Shire or Gont is excellent profit even with lower skill.
And don't forget that stealing stuff gives you general exp too!
Overall, it's a much better way of earning stuff as a lowbie than say herbing. But you need to dedicate yourself to thieving for that.

You would be surprised how many things and valuables you can actually steal Cherek :P

And if you go thief + gardener you're in for some serious cash and nice exp flow on lower levels.
Last edited by Rhaegar on 03 Feb 2011 13:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

Post by Sharn » 03 Feb 2011 13:33

Cherek wrote:But I bet there also a number of NPCs that you can still steal from... but not many.
Yeah...and why not just kill them?
Cherek wrote:When people were much smaller both backstab and poisons were much more useful. With tons of con, like Sharn says, its not anymore.
My thoughts exactly.
Cherek wrote: However there are still some fatigue poisons that can become serious problems even for big chars, so its not completely useless I would think.
Doubt that, I would say the good poison (from dagger) can at most scare the victim (player :mrgreen: not the character) and make them flee until they recover. And how many poisoned daggers can you get?
Getting a poisoned dagger is a difficult task, even if you are a ranger or have stun.
Even more difficult if you dont.
Cherek wrote:So thieves can sure use both their sneak and steal abilities. Especially if they are mercs and adapt it to sup guru I assume?
Yes, but mercs can adapt those skills without being a thief, too.
Thieves would need something unique to them, so that they are attractive for both mercs and others.

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Re: layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

Post by Sharn » 03 Feb 2011 13:38

Rhaegar wrote:As far as stealing coins go, you wouldn't believe how fast you can earn your living as a smallfry when you're a thief. A trip around Kabal (oh Grumbar, how I miss you and your platinum coins), Shire or Gont is excellent profit even with lower skill.
And don't forget that stealing stuff gives you general exp too!
Overall, it's a much better way of earning stuff as a lowbie than say herbing. But you need to dedicate yourself to thieving for that.

You would be surprised how many things and valuables you can actually steal Cherek :P

And if you go thief + gardener you're in for some serious cash and nice exp flow on lower levels.
Low levels, maybe.
I used to earn around 100 plats per hour when was veteran mercenary (old mercs). Just killing and looting.
No idea whether you can earn more then that as a thief or not.
But...100 plats per hour is good enough for me. Veteran does not really need more.

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Rhaegar
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Re: layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

Post by Rhaegar » 03 Feb 2011 13:38

Remember that mercs can adapt their sneak and hide skills (at the price of not adapting combat skills in their place) but don't get the autosneak which makes the entire venture rather pointless. Especially that you would need to use up a substantial amount of adaptation points to get this skills from sup amateur to any reasonable level.

And on the point of killing stuff to get the money: for smaller people who have trouble killing/getting their eq it would be much easier to just steal the coins.
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Re: layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

Post by Sharn » 03 Feb 2011 13:42

Rhaegar wrote:Remember that mercs can adapt their sneak and hide skills (at the price of not adapting combat skills in their place) but don't get the autosneak which makes the entire venture rather pointless. Especially that you would need to use up a substantial amount of adaptation points to get this skills from sup amateur to any reasonable level.

And on the point of killing stuff to get the money: for smaller people who have trouble killing/getting their eq it would be much easier to just steal the coins.
Might be...I just cant put myself in the role of a newbie anymore.
Simply you are apprentice for starters, then do some quests and you are vet. From there you can do a lot.

One thing. Do you really think that thieves are really guild for newbies?
I cant imagine a newbie finding the quest...even less so solving it :mrgreen:

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Rhaegar
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Re: layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

Post by Rhaegar » 03 Feb 2011 13:51

Shhhh... You're destroying the image of my favorite layman guild ;)
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Re: layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

Post by Sharn » 03 Feb 2011 13:56

Rhaegar wrote:Shhhh... You're destroying the image of my favorite layman guild ;)
I understand that you have a lot of sympathy for thieves.
But regardless of your sympathy and to be back on topic, thieves are not much layman choice option.

I might add that I like thieves from general RPG perspective.
But I do not miss genesis thieves. They were really scary back in the days :mrgreen:

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Re: layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

Post by Makfly » 03 Feb 2011 14:10

Rhaegar wrote:Can't speak on anything else than my own experience. And as such, thieves are pretty damn good.
Autosneak is nice.
Backstab is nice.
Pickpocket is king.
Removing traps, lockpicking and keyring were useful on occasion.
About, maybe a year ago, I was in the Thieves guild and attained max rank, which turned out to be a major disappointment.
Even as a Merc where I tested various skill-sets, all that the Thieves guild provided was fairly useless.
Very, very few places to steal, pick lock and backstab is an opener-only that's sub-par to most combat specials.
The keyring...Hmm, never really found it be super useful. Convenient a few times, but nothing crucial or tax-worthy.
Autosneak + Merc adaptation is okay, I guess. But I think the tax is (used to be) too high for just that one thing. Even with Sup Guru skills I had people see me anyways.

Maybe I was just not aware of how to make the guild awesome, but I asked contacts and gathered information as best I could, and somehow it didn't seem like my conclusion was all wrong.
Hopefully a recode will eventually make the game a bit more "thief-friendly" again.
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Re: layman choices - good vs evil (partly rant)

Post by Alorrana » 03 Feb 2011 14:13

Yeah they where quite the backstabbers back then. But they got the shit nerfed out of them, really a shame in some ways. Because here we can seriously talk about a guild that got pounded hard with the Nerf hammer. no one is basicially a thief anymore.. its still farily psycotic to find, the current one is where.. ? in a mountain and in some pipes, and in what ever..sewer? cant even remember.

Thives should be totally hidden in the open.. have small back rooms in bars, thieves only places, where they could meet and share stories, boards and such, and alot of them, so people couldnt say, there is the thieves, block entrance and kill who ever comes through the doors.. Perhaps even make it a guru quest for thieves to find all their hideouts..

unable to drop items in hideouts, because there is no hounor among thieves, so it would be auto removed if some used as hes or her private drop room. they should have a main (hidden) place to be with a chest for their stuff, daggers, and shit like that, no thief is going to go rob anybody in a platemail, so a rack only suited for light stuff.

Would require alot of redoing with the thieves, but i think it could make for a cool game play, and some seriously unpopular characters, If they could just learn to controle it and not abuse powers and steal from everything and anything, it could be fun. But i remember some thieves in the days of old stealing from newbies and really beeing unpleasent towards anything smaller than them selves.. so perhaps a moral coded in to the guild, they wouldnt be able to steal from people 1-2 mortal levels lower than them selves.?

Oh well better stop now. :D
I’m not a complete idiot. Some pieces are missing.

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