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Re: Changes

Post by Cherek » 18 Nov 2010 11:08

Alorrana: If you think I was mean towards you, I apologize. That was not the idea, the point was simply to discuss and and share my thoughts on your ideas. I have all the right not to like your suggestions and have another opinion. I have nothing against you as a person in any way. You even got me inspired to write a long note with my own ideas.

About the drunk part, it was a a semi-joke but I did wonder. Your post above WAS confusing. I did not understand it, it was full of grammatical errors and spelling errors and in the middle of it some comment about USA. It WAS confusing, simple as that. And no, english isnt your native language, and not mine either, but usually your posts are easy to understand and not confusing. I just had trouble understanding... and made a perhaps mean remark, sorry about that. Really.

Oh btw, seems I did manage to piss you off after all. Even though I didnt mean to.
Last edited by Cherek on 18 Nov 2010 19:34, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Changes

Post by Alorrana » 18 Nov 2010 11:11

sure sure.. sorry im not as well composed as you..
I’m not a complete idiot. Some pieces are missing.

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Re: Changes

Post by Cherek » 18 Nov 2010 11:12

I am probably one of the most confusing post-writers and I write way too long and complicated notes that even if they contain good ideas they are too long to read through. So who am I to make such a comment. Shame on me.

Sorry again for calling you drunk. I really didnt mean to offend you.

Sorry sorry sorry. Friends? Kiss and make up?

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Re: Changes

Post by gorboth » 18 Nov 2010 19:32

This really did turn into a GREAT thread. Thank you to all who have participated with their varied opinions and firm beliefs. I am always glad to see Alorrana back in action. Unlike many people who gripe, Alorrana truly does care for and love Genesis. Few players are as passionate as this one, and while he may get angry pretty easily, he works very hard to cultivate fun things in the game. I also value Cherek a lot for his dedication to getting his point across in carefully considered posts. He may, in fact, be the only person who writes notes as long as I do! (Rhynox is in the running.)

Anyway, it can be a shame when we choose to pick on eachother rather than the ideas themselves. I do think we have to be careful about what we say here if we want to maintain healthy process and relationships. I hope Alorrana does choose to continue to participate, as I think he's got very important things to say.

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Re: Changes

Post by gorboth » 18 Nov 2010 19:38

Cherek wrote:If a huge majority of the playerbase feels like that, quests should be removed from the game and perhaps replaced with a bunch of warcraft-style quests.
Cherek wrote:Fixing our current quests would be a huge job obviously considering how many quests there are and how spread out they are. But impossible? No.
One thing we need to do is remain realistic. The first of the quotes above by Cherek suggests an action that is completely out of the question. The quests of the game are fully intertwined with the areas in which they are embedded, and to remove them would compromise the entire construction of the game's content. The quests we have are here to stay, and trying to think outside that box means we just burn the box and sift the ashes. No thanks.

As for fixing quests - yes. They do deserve to be standardized and brought to a higher general level of quality. It is a HUGE job, but it is worth doing. I see a separate thread has begun on this, so I'll go see what that says.

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Re: Changes

Post by Bertram » 01 Dec 2010 16:16

Regarding player base "quality", I think that making the game technically difficult does not necessary improve the quality of the players in general but for sure it makes the players less in numbers. By analogy increasing taxes constantly by the government causes at some point the people to move their bussiness to other country where the taxes are resonable. A quality player which is also successful in their real life will not automatically look for the most difficult and time consuming game in the internet. I think the difficulty level should be readjusted after rethinking what makes the game technically difficult and on the other hand what makes it fun and rewarding. Apart from many other things, the quests are indeed the important factor of the game, should be fun and rolling adventure, should be regarded as a priviledge rather that something that the player is forced into, left alone stuck, frustrated struggling with illogical syntaxes, etc. what has been already told before. Even though people generally use “solutions” it is still diffcult to accomplish many quests. I think realistic fix for the quests problem could be: why not make the full solution to the quests available in the form of the hints? I mean not only vague hints as it is now but also full syntaxes where it is needed. But not for free of course. Make it in several parts, the first one contains only general hints and its free to view. If one can’t progress on the quests, then the next part of the hints is for a price in platinum coins. So the focus would be put on the story telling part and ideas of the quests, not the technicalities and syntaxes.
I think that the quality of the player base can always be regulated by the guilds politics, entering certain guilds can be very demanding.
For more complex solutions there is probably not enough wizards to create it in reasonable time ( how many years? ). Would be more efficient to recruit more wizards from the new players.

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Re: Changes

Post by Uther » 05 Dec 2010 17:33

Greetings all.

General view
I have been reading this thread and I read that majority of the active people are "against" the quest.
From what I have heard there is a quest cap and a brute cap in Genesis now. The brute cap has been
there for several years. So when you reach a certain amount of brutality you will only receive X amount
of the EXP from a kill on a monster. It doesn't matter if you get even more brutal. You "can't" become more
brutal then the brute cap, if the brute cap wasn't there, you could eventually end up getting 0 exp from a kill.

Battle all the way ? Grind-o-matic 2020
So theoretically you could battle all the way up to myth without doing one single quest but as the
brute formula is now it will take ages, or rather lightyears. But once you are there in the same size as
the others you will receive as much EXP as they get for the kill of same monster, but the difference is
that you reached the brute cap much earlier and it took ages for you to get to Myth size.

So what do QUESTS do? They speed up your growth. They offer puzzles and challenges as well. There are
quests out there that are FUN!! to solve, there are those that stinks worse then an old rotten egg fart.
Some quests are not even possible to solve without a quest solution. Note: I haven't quested since they started
to implement hints on the the quests.

Making Quests optional?
My suggestion is not to remove the quests, but to make them OPTIONAL like some others have allready said.
Many people know there are around x-xx million questexp to gather out there. So when you have battled
up to Myth size, xxx xxx xxx + experience somewhere, and reached brute cap you aint receiving much from a kill,
then solving quests will be sometimes faster exp for you then going to kill, cause the exp areas worth going to are
allready "taken" and there are people there killing. I bet there are "math geeks" out there among us players that can
figure out a formula that isn't that complicated really just all EXP goes to one pool and then calculate a brute
formula from that that gives the players the same stats as they have today.

Cloning QuestExp?
I don't know where I read it, but someone mentioned something about a suggestion to be able to clone your Qexp (aka
copy the quest bits into the new character so you can't do them again) to a second so you don't have to do all the quests
again. If not a change now is possible with making the quests optional perhaps this would be a way to attract more players.

I for one haven't started a second since I don't have the urge to do all the quests again. There are others that has tried to
do the same and gotten halfway and then they got bored since they also not seem to have urge to do all quests again. They
don't manage to gather a team to slay that mob to obtain item X to do quest Y. When players are small they are not often
invited to BIG_PLAYER_EXP_PARTIES cause they can't contribute to the team. I sometimes invite smaller players, drag them
on an EXP-round on Mithas or Elves or something safe. But using a "clone QuestExp" character you would maybe end up as an
Great Adventurer/Expert with 0 brute, join a guild, battle a bit, train some skills, and you would get a headstart and it feels
much more fun to play since it went SMOOTH.

It is always more fun to see a character PROGRESS and GROW compared to play a big one where you need a lot of EXP to grow.
Probably we would see many "seconds" POP UP! like mushrooms for a while but perhaps that is what takes to make Genesis
to raise their playerbase. You have to try every angle, turn every coin to increase the current playerbase. I bet there are
some players out there that feels their character are "stuck" cause they feel they cannot do anything with it atm.

Some people might need a change in the game, and cloning their QuestExp giving them a headstart in the game, they might
need a change in the game and they feel they don't wanna do that with their character and questing with a new one takes
to much time/effort/yada, they rather quit the mud then play.

So what do we have to loose from trying this idea and see where it leads ? It's not that hard to keep track of which
characters are cloned and not. You can save it in the playerfile. If it backfires then remove it and try another angle.
This might get some of the old players to return or current active ones maybe to play even more? We have seen what the
event does. Some people that rarely plays, they play when there are events, otherwise they say Genesis is boring.

Cloning QuestExp should only be allowed to do from your character. Character -> Clone = OK!! Clone -> Clone2 = BAD! Not allowed!

Since sharing a character is NOT allowed there should be no problem here. You will automatically get the second
tied to your first character, if you then had been STUPID ENOUGH to share your password with someone, and he/she clones a
character on your character, then suit yourself. You broke the rules now deal with the consequenses. Perhaps then you will find
out who your true friends are.

I strongly recomend that Gorboth and the ARCH-team really consider this idea.

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Re: Changes

Post by Cherek » 05 Dec 2010 18:09

Could you explain the "Making quests optional" idea more closely? I dont understand what you are suggesting. Maybe I am just stupid and just dont get what you were saying, but it sounds to me like you just want to remove brutality from the game? But I probably misunderstand something? Care to give it another shot for me? :)

About cloning... well... its a matter of personal preference I guess. I have had a total of three characters during all the years, starting a new when the one I was playing was feeling "boring", just like you explain. However, both times I started a new char I thought a big part of the FUN was to relive all the quests, and even finding a few new ones. And also gaining not friends without all the baggage of the old char. But in liking quests I seem to be in a minority (of those who have spoken up atleast) so maybe your idea may be successful and enjoyed by many. Maybe even by me...:)


Re: Changes

Post by Creed » 05 Dec 2010 22:44

The clone-xp idea is flawed though.

It will only help the current playerbase, and mostly the people who are already big.
It will not attract new people, and it will make it even harder for true newbies to find teams at their own size.

Its more or less the same that happened ages ago in Dark Age of Camelot.
There was a hard level cap at 50, and you couldn't get any bigger.
If you had a char at lvl 50, then at some update you could make new characters beginning in lvl 20, and therefore skipping the first 20 levels.

That just resulted in the new players being totally lost, and really left to themselves, since all the people with the knowledge of what quests to do, where to hunt and how to level, were no longer from lvl 1 to lvl 19.

The idea is nice, and I would use it if it was there, but I don't really think it will help the playerbase.
Main concern is that it will make that ton of new chars, and people begin to have chars in every guild, since all the hard work with a char is not needed anymore.

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Re: Changes

Post by Uther » 06 Dec 2010 08:35

Cherek wrote:Could you explain the "Making quests optional" idea more closely? I dont understand what you are suggesting. Maybe I am just stupid and just dont get what you were saying, but it sounds to me like you just want to remove brutality from the game? But I probably misunderstand something? Care to give it another shot for me? :)
The Making Quests Optional idea is that your brute is not calculated on todays current system but rather just EXP.
I wanna keep the brute in the game, otherwise it will go totally unbalanced.

You will just have EXP, = Combat + Questexp, if you have 300 000 000 millions exp, in total, you are Extremely violent
in brute. Your brute shall not be dependant on how much Questexp compared to Combatexp you have but rather
instead how much experience you have totally gained.

So when you have 300 000 000 millions and battling you do not gain much of each kill, you probably would get more
from doing some quests. Making quests optional means you don't have to do them but you can if you want to. So if
you wanna gain let's say 5 millions of QuestExp spending some hours solving quests compared to you need to battle
for 5-6 weeks to make the same well then it is up to you. Easy Exp or hardcore grinding for some weeks. Your choice.

Note: I know the numbers aren't correct, they are just there to show an example of how you can make EXP on quests
instead of combat.

As Creed is saying, this wont help the newbies, cause it only benefits us allready established players of the mud.
I can understand that angle and I agree to it as well. And people getting seconds in every guild is not that much
difference from today. People have seconds everywhere, except me, that is why I finally became MYTH, and like I said
in the other post. I don't have the urge to create a new one and do all the quests again, even with solutions. It takes
to long time.

The totally new newbies still have the newbie line, we are many helpfull players out there that are willing to help.
Imagine Genesis perhaps flourishing with new blood every here and there, even though from seconds, or seconds that
maybe will return due to this possibility with QuestExp Cloning. The true newbies will see that there are people playing
and there are things happening.

How come Arcadia ?, Is that the name of the Polish Mud?, can keep their playerbase above 70-80 every day? What do
they have that Genesis don't ? From what I have heard it is Genesis but in Polish. Can some polish player enlighten us please.
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