Changes

[Alorrana]

Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks my friend.

No not all quests should have uber rewards, some just small + 1 luck + 1 speed things tokiens, and cash rewards for smaller quests. Quests like the torque gives you the torque and a huge bunch of xp. Golden standard gives you the.. You know.. I dont know if i can say it here. and "that helmet" too.. so there is a good reward in doing those quests already, I think that should be done with more of the big and time consuming quests.

Well it might incurrage people to try questing a bit more if you get a pair of keeping boots or something. or what ever.. Point wasting 4 hrs of gaming, dying then not able to solve the quest makes people give up... you die during it a few times, and gain really nothing from it but xp.. Im not saying what i suggest is the best way to do things, just that quests shouldnt be forced to grow.. You should be able to say hell with questing, ill grind my way to myth, cause im a grinder..

Yes I think it was more relaxing back when champ was cap title.. you didnt know the difference, You compared and really couldnt rely on it.. hehe. was more exiting.. Now if your a hero, You dont jump a myth.. cause you know the outcome. but back then, they would both have been champs.

I agree people leaves for tons of reasons. but mostly due to questing.. those ive known that gave it a shot, came to this question, do i have to do these quests.. answer, Yep. well im off then.. its to hard when English is not your native language. you spend much longer time trying and failing. (personal experience)

[Greneth]

But why is it you feel you have to quest so much?

It is still optional isnt it? Maybe it will be harder to grow myth without much quest xp, but does everyone have to be myths?

Because Genesis forces you to grow and to grow you need quests. Why? Gear, Areas, Parties, NPC's, Guilds, even some Quests all require you to be about Hero or higher at a minimum.

I'm not even talking about being a Myth, hell I would be happy with a Titan or Champ tops just so I can at least do a few things.


***Edit***

And no my posts aren't about how I'm never coming back or I hate the game, main reason is I just don't have the enthusiasm and with Fable 3, Black Ops, Civilization 5 out Genesis is just taking a short break.

[gorboth]

This issue highlights a very important decision that the developers and community of the game need to think about. Specifically - what *type* of player do we want to cater to when we think about design decisions for Genesis. As anyone who has been tuned in to my vocalizations over the last few years will know, one of my main broken-recordisms is the whole idea to BUILD THE PLAYERBASE. Yes! Of course.

But, just as important a question is what do we want the playerbase to be built from?

• Do we want a game filled with the sort of people who hate the "storytelling" aspects of the game like roleplay and questing?
• Do we want a game filled with people who will never be interested in anything more than a "casual" style of gameplay?
• Do we want a game filled with people who would rather have a wiki of all game content ready at hand than ever think to actually explore the game on their own?

Myself, I would lose my motivation for Genesis if the above sorts of people constituted the majority of the playerbase. That being said, the above traits will always be represented, and I feel we need to support the interests of such people. We do not, however, need to build or rebuild the entire game around such people. We welcome them, and we hope they will find things they enjoy. We do not, however, try to make the entire game something they can stomach without the required work or patience.

Genesis is built on these core offerings, which I feel distinguish us from the field:

• A vast array of roleplay opportunities through guild membership.
• A huge and diverse world filled with a staggering number of things to discover and explore.
• A tremendous number of quests which offer unique challenges and rewards, allowing players to take part in the stories upon which the game world is based.
• A deep well of weapon, armour, herb, and trinket lore for players to discover and master.
• A rich heritage of player interaction which includes both companionship and warfare.

In summary: Guilds, Areas, Quests, Items, PvP

These are the treasures of Genesis. Every single one of these things constitutes a major aspect of our game. If you cannot stand one of these aspects, perhaps you like the others well enough to tough it out and stick around for what you consider to be the "good stuff." But if you find most or all of these things to be boring or not your cup of tea, then clearly you are wasting time in the wrong game. Genesis will continue to treasure these things, and needs to market itself to people who also value them.

G.

[Alorrana]

I disagree.

Wizards needs to build the game to what suits the general public. not to inforce their own ideas and see if it works or not. Then its a Diktatorship.

example if many people find questing, to har or to borring or what ever might be wrong with them, they should be changed. its a simple, the most votes win. take the majority of the players and work from there, yes you will get some pissy ones but they will not leave. they will piss it out and return.

people play to grow, get cool stuff, rp, then fight.. and then quest... I dont know anyone playing to quest... Roleplaying yes, grinding yes, uber equipment yes, but quests no. its always the same old song, over and over again "Ohh i wish i didnt have to do these quests" And for me that just seems like something that should be taken care of.

[Gub]

• Do we want a game filled with the sort of people who hate the "storytelling" aspects of the game like roleplay and questing?
• Do we want a game filled with people who will never be interested in anything more than a "casual" style of gameplay?
• Do we want a game filled with people who would rather have a wiki of all game content ready at hand than ever think to actually explore the game on their own?

I don't think its fair to lump roleplayers and questers into the same category. I think there are plenty of people in Genesis who contribute their role but don't enjoy the questing aspect of Genesis.

I think the "storytelling" aspect, as you call it, is a wonderful aspect to Genesis. However, I don't understand why it is so heavily intertwined with growth.

Much like roleplay, if people want to roleplay Genesis should be a great place for them to do so. If they don't want to roleplay they don't have to. Questing on the other hand is a non-option. You will quest and you will like it, or no growth for you!

The stance we currently have on questing makes no sense to me, especially with a guild like mercenaries. We say to our users "we'd like it if you roleplayed, but if you don't, here are the mercenaries" and this is great! It gives people who don't want to roleplay a monk or a slave an option to roleplay as... anything, including their OOC player. But when it comes to questing we say "nope, sorry, you have to".

I'd rather have a game filled with 100 people who need a wiki than the same 10 "explorers", that I keep bumping into. This reminds me of an elitest view for who we want in the game, is all of Genesis the Morgul Mages?

I'm not saying we should reinvent the wheel or start from scratch, I'm saying lets give people an option.

When I first came to Genesis I didn't know what roleplay was, I could barely stay alive for more than 10 seconds in the game, but I came to love roleplaying and exploring. This is a very viable option for a lot of people, if we'd give THEM a chance.

[Laurel]

I don't think its fair

when exactly did Genesis become a fair game? haven't been that since I started (don't know before, but couldn't have been much different)

[Gub]

Well that quote is a bit out of context.

I don't think its fair to lump roleplayers and questers into the same category.

I'm not sure how to respond to that Laurel. I wasn't trying to make a comment on the fairness of Genesis as a whole.

[Hektor]

As for the sort of player we attract I tend to agree with Gub. It was never the quests that encouraged me to roleplay. It was the roleplay I wanted that demanded I quest. The first 2 years or so I had no idea really what RP was, until someone helped/threatened me to learn it (thank you Anfalas!). Then when I finally realized I wanted to be either a paladin or a fire cleric.. .. I also learned that role is near impossible to play with any sort of success when all the baddies you want to stand up to are 4 mortal levels bigger than you, and with a better brute (when you died, even if you were smaller it took you a longer time to get back on track than they did!), while also your friends you started playing with are lumbering around in heaven doing things they cant take you along for - you will die, sorry.

This is when I really started using quest solutions. Not because I necessarily liked to quest or powergrow but because I either had to follow the competition or live in permanent martyrdom being a rather boring sort of paladin (have I later in life become somewhat of a powerplayer? Yes absolutely - but thats just a shift of interest and lack of people to RP with)

Moreover, I have over the past 5 years gotten at least 10+ people to give the game a try. Only one of them stayed because of the questing/exploring. The others left with the quests being a major factor. Some of them could have been great RP additions to the game.

I think Gorboths listing of Genesis' core competencies / main selling points that distinguishes it are correct and therefore needs focus, however, the quests are simply not good enough at this point to be considered a fair selling point.

The logic in many of them are flawed. The things you need to do to progress in some quests are so obscure and in many cases the hints suggesting what you need to do are not present at all. No matter how many NPCs you talk to, places you type exa/search and libraries you visit it never became clear why you had to "jump the elderflower to reach the fifth circle in the bubble bath". But hey this file says I have to...

In addition to that they often bug up and stall. Having tried starting a new character a few times now, I am amazed still at how many quests that do not reset properly, get stuck for the rest of boot if a certain item is misplaced, etc etc. "Why did players not report this?" Because we are simply accepting/hating the quests as they are as a necessary evil. We do not necessarily know why we are doing what we are doing, sitting reading the quest doc, and certainly do not want the attention of the wizards that we are using one. Today the policy is much more lenient, but you do not need to go so far back in time, where just uttering the word in the game would bring you brimstone soup.

Also the syntax setup varies so much that it is arbitrary on whatever wizard coded the quest at best.

All in all I think the quests as they are - a necessary evil - do not constitute enjoyment on any level for most players, rather they are a stalling factor for Genesis. I realize it can be a good way to learn practical things/history/theme of an area, hard to replace the questxp&brute system as a good way to manage inflation, and it would create a storm of 1 minute "gee I am bored with the game, I am gonna have a char in this guild now and not really give a hoot when they finally let me in" seconds.

Yet to think that new players today are going to enjoy day after day of logging on, spending 3 hours on a quest not succeeding repeatedly, maybe dying in the end due to obscure bugs, syntaxes hints etc is not right.

Players today do not have the same time, and there are many other games (muds included) that compete with Genesis. If they find too much resistance they move on. When they learn that there is a hidden punishment system in many quests that if you don't do things in a certain order or get all the items yourself you may loose out on several thousands of qxp they become even more discouraged.

The fact that the only absolute constant (qexp you cant loose in any way unless a wizard removes them, and you must have them to really play the game) is dependent on a system (current quest system) so horribly bugged, broken and outdated is a major detriment to the game.

IF all the quests had clear hints (ala newbie land and torque) and a natural flow, a clear logic, the same syntax setup, and did not punish you for not asking/getting/doing the exact right thing in the exact order then and only then I could vouch in favor of it. As it is? It is a big disgrace to the rest of the game content of Genesis hindering developers and players alike strongly in building a new playerbase.

[Laurel]

Well that quote is a bit out of context.

I don't think its fair to lump roleplayers and questers into the same category.

I'm not sure how to respond to that Laurel. I wasn't trying to make a comment on the fairness of Genesis as a whole.

I tend to think and respond in a shortcut-way
the above was a short version of:
Genesis was never fair in the field of wizards vs mortals vs mortals with wiz-chars/friends vs mortals with wiz-info. It has ALWAYS been wizards' decisions how the game should be designed, run, rules enforced, etc. This system had at times no, at times corrupt people in the supervisory roles. Some of the wizards were different, but most ... have their deal of dirt on their hands ... exactly like players (who recently gave in to use scripts, quest files, macros, multilogging, etc. ... while wizards really try to keep their "superior" white clothes unstained with any wrong deeds, eventho it stinks underneath).

It's not like players didn't use scripts, quest files, macros, multilogging, etc. in the past anyway, but they say so. Wizards don't - they are "above" that. Just like some huge-ego'ed players with access to wiz-info, wiz-chars, etc.

Such a situation is not new. It was around since I remember (stories ... about cloning cash, quest-exp pouring from coded and re-cloned items, items coded for the purpose of executing non-trackable cheats, etc. etc.) so all involved parties kind of warred against eachother.

Players obviously have/had less tools in this conflict, but they didn't really fail. Some really won (i.e. Saya, Poet, Shinto's buddy club, etc.) with or without wiz-help. However new players had NEVER the same chances as those with wiz-support, quest files, scrip-coding skills, etc.

Thus my statement is that Genesis was never fair. It never will be as long it's people (with personalities, friends, personal involvement) executing rules and standards. There is always place for favours, different treatment, etc.

There is also always only a small part of the community involved in decision making - never all. Especially if "all" is also those, who left and cannot be heard anymore ... and those are a vast majority.

With my warm regards to the people I really miss. Not to play with anymore, but to have around.

[Kas]

Agreed with Hektor.

Besides, there are many ways to incorporate the questxp without it necessarily interfering with brute and physical character growth.

Examples could be: Percentbased benefits on skillcaps, abilities, powers, buy new abilities etc.

And a good game have a colourful array of all kind of players, methinks.