And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

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Zingil
Apprentice
Posts: 39
Joined: 09 Jan 2011 13:46

Re: And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

Post by Zingil » 30 Sep 2011 11:08

One of my main issues with wearing a shield, or two for that matter, is that you actually do _not_ lose any offensive capabilities by doing so. You still happily punch away with your hand or hands while wearing the shield. Most people would of course not notice this as they would have the option to use unarmed attacks set to off to focus on only attacking with their weapon(s). But characters with high unarmed combat skills, and fight unarmed, lose no attacks whatsoever by wearing a shield. For them it actually makes no sense at all to only wear one shield as wearing two would give them a lot of added protection while not hampering their offensive capabilities one bit.

However, characters fighting with weapons and only possess a negligable skill at unarmed combat are instantly penalised by wearing a second shield as their primary attack is removed, usually the guild special attack as well and they no longer benefit from their parry skill. So the added protection offered by wearing a second shield is instantly offset by large penalties. It would really only make sense to wear a second shield if the character already has a low primary weapon skill, low parry skill and a different way of dealing out damage, i.e. casters.

It is also worth pointing out that a significant portion of the unarmbed combat skill actually doubles as parry skill when fighting unarmed in order to compensate for the loss off the normal parry skill when fighting without a weapon.

I agree with Recoba that wearing two shields does look silly but see no reason why it shouldnt be possible to equip two shields, or five if you have five arms, but I think it would make sense to block people from using the arm wearing the shield to strike blows with.

-Zingil's player

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Iliana
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Location: U.S.A.

Re: And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

Post by Iliana » 30 Sep 2011 14:49

How bout if the code were changed so that one shield acted like a shield, the other offered 50% of normal protection and 50% of a normal weapon skill, in other words make a the shield, when there are two, one acts like half a weapon and half a shield, the other one like a normal shield.

Uther
Great Adventurer
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Joined: 11 Aug 2010 12:51

Re: And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

Post by Uther » 30 Sep 2011 17:10

This was the most disguised personal attack against me, I guess it was cause I mentioned your name
in the last post I made. LAME!

I am 100 % sure this post wouldn't have appeared otherwise. Enough said about that now.

Taking away the ability to wear 2 shields would NERF the Dragon Order BIGTIME.
But I guess you wanna make Dragon Order into Knights 2, a guild that noone plays. Hurray!
I haven't seen a knight in action the last 3-4 weeks at least. I wonder why. Oh I forgot, they got NERFED!!!

If it hurts your eyes DON'T exa <player>. I wanna look "stupid" wearing two shields.
If we are going to talk realism here then we can close down the mud..

I don't think many of you know how the Dragon Order works.

We have 4 attacks each combat round, fist, fist, foot, foot, that means every combat round
we have 25 % chance of hitting our opponent. Which is 1 of 4 would hit theoretically. That is LOW!!!
Then comes other variables as well.

Someone that has Sup Guru <weaponskill> has higher chance to hit but just
one attack each combat round. (Haste increasing items not included)

Then we have the Karma thing, an ability that makes your fists and feet hit harder.
Everytime we login we have to hunt for karma, otherwise it would be like wielding a rusty dagger.
So we need to break weapons, the better weapons the better for us. Easy logic. So it takes about
30-60 mins then you have Karma so you can make a difference.
Our Karma decays overtime.. like a weapon dulling when fighting, if you are really unlucky you can lose 4 levels of
karma within 20 mins. It's random. I do a date;mkarma every 5th minute so I see if it has decayed.

Taking away 2 attacks from us will nerf us big time in offense. The little offense we have.
But heck I can wear 2 shields, let me just sharpen the edges and then have rock n roll. SNAP! Forgot
then we will be like Shieldwall Commanders/Angmars smashing their shields into the opponent. NAH!
We don't wanna look like them.

So enough swinging of the NERFBAT on the Dragon Order NOW.

* First we got our PLEX nerfed.
* Then they implement imbuements where we CANNOT benefit from the fire-slay xxxx imbuements. Cause they are only for weapons. = We do less dmg against our mobs.
* Then they change so we cannot "break" unbreakable weapons.
* Then they change so we can break unbreakable weapons but they give lesser karma then we weapon should have normally given if it was a normal weapon.

I say let us keep our ability to wear 2 shields. That are what the monks are living on in combat. The AC given by the extra shield isn't that much. Try tanking Minos
in Icewall. I wimp from them even with PLEX AND SUPERGEAR!!!

If you have any problem with my posts, PM me instead of attacking me via the guild.
All comments are made by the player behind Uther, NOT THE CHARACTER UTHER!

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OgreToyBoy
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Re: And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

Post by OgreToyBoy » 30 Sep 2011 18:56

In regard to your ridiculous attempt to defend the 2shield game..
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Two shields are stupid, I'd be ok with it if you as a DO lost your fist attacks while using two shields.

Gub
Adventurer
Posts: 93
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 08:07

Re: And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

Post by Gub » 30 Sep 2011 21:28

I agree that two shields is odd. I'm really surprised the Mages do it, but it has been big part of the Monk culture for some time. There are supporting pieces of thematic code for the double-shields in the Dragon Order. That doesn't justify it, but it gives you an idea about how widely accepted its been.

When you consider roleplay, I do think it fits a little, martial artists are known for using whatever is at their disposal... Having said that, I'm still not in love with double-shields being a part of the guild and I think the roleplay is a stretch.

My suggestion would be to remove the ability, but to wait.

We've had a lot of changes happen to the Monks over the past 5-7 years, and for the most part I've been a fan. If you change the double-shields you change the Monks in a big way and if you're going to do that, then please wait till after they've been recoded. Petros has been very fair in "opening a window after closing a door" and I don't think he'd hamstring a guild just on this. If you change this detail, I would imagine that you'd have to do balance testing and deal with a lot of griping from the players. If you push the change off until the recodes, you can deal with it all at once and compensate for the damage (of removing double-shields) appropriately.

Personally, I feel that the skill-set and theme of the Monks is not a true match. The theme was written awhile ago, and a lot of changes have happened to the guild in order for them to be balanced. Karma is a great example of this, the idea is fantastic, but the implementation is flawed and its not mentioned anywhere in the theme. These small changes to the skill-set have lead to small changes in the theme code and the two no longer run together as well as they should. The players have adapted to these changes to maximize the skill-set, and in doing so have wandered off the "Path" so to speak.

So lets wait until we have a wizard dedicated to recoding the guild, and then make the radical changes. If we create a plan that takes into consideration theme and code, we could avoid some of these issues. I'd love to see Monks changed in radical ways. I'd love to see a no-armor option, or whatever, but these small changes we see now are just band-aids. They are not helping anyone in the long run.

So again, remove the double-shields ability (it is very strange to see), but wait until a time when you can make real fixes to the issues it'll create.

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Strider
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Re: And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

Post by Strider » 30 Sep 2011 22:02

Uther wrote:Taking away the ability to wear 2 shields would NERF the Dragon Order BIGTIME.
I'm not sure that follows. If two shields were taken into consideration when the Order was balanced, I would think that an adjustment would be made to compensate if that was changed, and if they were not, and they prove to be as powerful as you claim, then...

That said, I am not against the ability to employ two shields, in and of it's self. Honestly, two spiked bucklers sounds pretty bad-ass. On the other hand, I can only picture someone wearing two tower shields as a clam with all the offensive mussel of a shrimp... Sorry.

Most shields utilize handles, and reality-wise that precludes the use of anything, even a hand, other than the shield for attacks. If anything is going to be done regarding shields and unarmed combat, I'm leaning towards taking away any attacks from any limb guarded by a shield, perhaps with an offsetting increase in protection. On the other hand, I can see anyone using unarmed being able to use hand, arm, foot and leg armors to parry or otherwise deflect blows, instead of shields, with an attendant increase in wear.

I'd also think that two shields would foul any spell with a somatic component increasing with the size of the shields.
The preceding collection of words was presented by Strider's Player.
Any meaning you ascribe to them is most likely due to lucky happenstance or your misinterpretation.

If you'd prefer Strider's opinion, you'll probably have to ask for it in game.

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Irk
Rising Hero
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Re: And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

Post by Irk » 30 Sep 2011 22:08

yours whining is stupid and odd. If someone want to wear two shields, so be it. It is nothing unrealistic, two hands and do whatever you want with them. This is mud and there is much more unrealistic and stupid things than someone wearing two shields.

Creed

Re: And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

Post by Creed » 30 Sep 2011 22:49

In my eyes DO was never ment to be an offensive guild.
It is in so many ways based on rendering the enemy incapable of hurting the monk, and that way be able to keep alive while some teammember kills the enemy.

That the DO all of a sudden, out of nowhere, became seriously godmode, only the GM can tell.
I seriously cannot see how it was ever possible.

I think it would be quite a fair thing if you could not attack with a hand/arm that wears a shield. Unless that shield was a small buckler, strapped on your arm. Because with all other shields, your hand is holding a strap inside the shield, and then you can't really use it to hit with.

I don't know about your comment about knights. I cannot tell why other knights are not playing, but I stopped because I got really tired of everything just being the same.
Same people you meet, same npc's you kill, same eq you hunt and so on..

A shield is ment for protection, and protection is a feature for being defensive. It should not be possible to wear a shield on right arm (being defensive on right arm) and strike with the right hand (being offensive with right hand) at the same time. Its two total opposites, and it ought not be possible.

I was a Kaheda back then, and later a DO when it changed. I never had the ability to kill anything big that wasn't solo. And when I killed something big, it took me 20+ minutes.
DO ought to be a neutral kind of neidars. A guild that doesn't kick ass offensively, and kills slowly, but is almost impossible to kill.
But they should have the option to change it, namely dropping the shields and become more offensive by having more attacks and therefore more power, by giving up some defence.

Uther
Great Adventurer
Posts: 182
Joined: 11 Aug 2010 12:51

Re: And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

Post by Uther » 01 Oct 2011 01:37

Creed wrote:In my eyes DO was never ment to be an offensive guild.
It is in so many ways based on rendering the enemy incapable of hurting the monk, and that way be able to keep alive while some teammember kills the enemy.

That the DO all of a sudden, out of nowhere, became seriously godmode, only the GM can tell.
I seriously cannot see how it was ever possible.

I think it would be quite a fair thing if you could not attack with a hand/arm that wears a shield. Unless that shield was a small buckler, strapped on your arm. Because with all other shields, your hand is holding a strap inside the shield, and then you can't really use it to hit with.

I don't know about your comment about knights. I cannot tell why other knights are not playing, but I stopped because I got really tired of everything just being the same.
Same people you meet, same npc's you kill, same eq you hunt and so on..

A shield is ment for protection, and protection is a feature for being defensive. It should not be possible to wear a shield on right arm (being defensive on right arm) and strike with the right hand (being offensive with right hand) at the same time. Its two total opposites, and it ought not be possible.

I was a Kaheda back then, and later a DO when it changed. I never had the ability to kill anything big that wasn't solo. And when I killed something big, it took me 20+ minutes.
DO ought to be a neutral kind of neidars. A guild that doesn't kick ass offensively, and kills slowly, but is almost impossible to kill.
But they should have the option to change it, namely dropping the shields and become more offensive by having more attacks and therefore more power, by giving up some defence.

Good post here. Like Creed is saying, we don't have much offensive, and we need the defensive things to be able to withstand the dmg from an NPC while we kill them, and it takes time.
All comments are made by the player behind Uther, NOT THE CHARACTER UTHER!

Amberlee
Myth
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Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

Post by Amberlee » 01 Oct 2011 04:40

I dont say i disagree with you both, Creed and Uther.
What i AM saying is, find another way to do the same without wearing two shields.
A tweak or two in the code is all thats needed.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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