And he's wearing... what, TWO shields??

[Laurel]

So all you people are pointing out, is that there's no distinction between tower shields and bucklers (usage- and code-wise) in Genesis.

You can easily use two bucklers at the same time and be quite lethal - especially when the line between buckler and stabbing weapon (buckler+katar?) are quite blurry.

You can easily use a sword + buckler (NOT as a shield) - see Talhoffer:


Both fighters using bucklers here:


Google up bucklers - especially the more offensive ones.
Like the buckler that can be worn on the same arm as wielding a katar:



Or a fist-buckler:


Or a ... lantern-shield!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lantern_shield


Anyway - I can agree that dance-like fighting while wearing two tower shields is pushing the line (but so is plenty other things in a fantasy world). I can agree that bucklers are more reasonable - quite deadly actually, when paired with katars (for example). Actually I'd even go back to the times when SU were wearing shields, if it was buckler+katar.

Too bad that actually finding the ideal solution for you lot would mean a hell lot of recoding (tower shields vs bucklers usage) ... or just go the easy way and remove shields all-together ... just leave bucklers for covering/shieldslamming. Could even rework current ones to change the looks and allow protection of an arm (1-armed bracers?) only.

Edit: could maybe work on attaching bucklers to 2-handed weapons?
Kender hoopak + buckler = hoopak with added AC? Less handy weapon-hits, but no decreased sling-hit.
Jet-black war-sword + buckler = finally some tanking usage (meaning ANY use for this sword)?
MBB + buckler = crappier shieldslam or cover (for lay AA mercs/glads) BUT finally MBB back into "usable" category again?

Such a solution could finally address the issue with 2-handed weapons being penalized for powerplay around Genesis (with only few exceptions - like gigantic sword, fbb, obsi halberd, etc.).

Imagine an Angmarim with a sledgehammer with an attached buckler, pulping things while still covering hits? Or the improvement for BDA (did I really write that now ...?) being able to use 2h swords without completely loosing cover+smack (just cut it's effectiveness by half compared to using a full shield)? Or the RDA+AA combo being usable (I didn't really write to improve Rage's killing speed now ... did I?).

[Uther]

Shouldn't that just prove how much a second shield changes everything and that it actually makes things a bit overpowered? Your tanking ability changed 100% with the second shield, you don't see anything wrong with that?

No I don't actually. Since Monks are considered to be 2nd best tanking guild in the realms.
At Qualinesti elves I go down to hurt with 2 shields. Then you shall not mention the Mithas trolls.. they are nasty and takes me sometimes down to in a bad shape.

My tanking ability doesn't change 100 % I still go down to somewhat hurt sometimes on TT when wearing 2 shields. so NO monks aint a brick wall not even with 2 shields.

[Tarax the Terrible]

Like the buckler that can be worn on the same arm as wielding a katar:

Holy crap a Blade two guns and a shield.
I want one!

[Laurel]

Wouldn't you prefer this one?

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2011- ... evelopment

[Alorrana]

hehe.. complaining about wearing two shields cause you cant do it in real life..

but we have rings that gives darkness, rings to breathe underwater.. can store platemails and polearms in belt packs. imbues and what not to make you uber.. but wearing two shields.. Uhh BIG NO NO, cause it eint real..

oh well.. glad im only wearing one.

[Tarax the Terrible]

It was a good point about restricting guilds and their specials to armour classes.
As you see that in nearly every other RPG is probably our biggest "we are ignoring the Elephant in the room" issue.

A mage able to channel energies through metal armours a knight would envy.
Stealth guilds able to sneak around in clunky creaking metal armours.
No significant fatigue difference from moving in heavy vs light armour (due to inconsistent equipment weights)
No awareness penalty for visored helms.

I know of only one/two sets of armours that have real trade-offs to using them.
Midnight blue full-plate when worn hampers the players combat speed.
Suit of shinning armour as it is realistically heavy for the description and AC it gives.

So yeah, using two tower shields is unrealistic, but to fix it opens a can of worms and a huge amount of work, unbalancing the gameplay.

+ Shields did get a pretty decent nerf a while ago.
Changed coverage locations on most of them to exclude the head.
A lot of shields before then covered head body one arm and legs.
So the comment about this being as silly as wearing two helmets...
Back then a bunch of shields when doubled up was like wearing 3 helmets!!

Coverage is more important than pure AC in most cases.
IE one of the best AC shields is the maroon dragon scale from Kabal.
But it only covers (adds that AC) to one arm.
If you "compare shield to second shield" for most anything it likely say the scale is "better".
But even if you have shield with only half that AC covering 3 locations the total benefit is greater
(Since we stack AC on most locations +natural ac buff +magical dmg blocks being available thru items/specials).


BUT if we were going to fix it......

Natural AC buffs mentioned as an alternative for monk shields. This is a nice thematic idea.
But if you took the AC of 2 Bubbas shields and gave them that as natural AC, they would be significantly tougher for certain guilds & npcs to fight (the ones which bypass worn armour AC with their specials)
But the Neidar already do something A LOT more drastic by reducing total dmg taken + chance to block specials via another method. So yeah go for it!

Other combat guilds trade off more dmg and defense than monks to use two shields - so let them.
(apart from Neidars, they shouldn't be allowed one shield!)

Caster guilds, block offensive casting when two (one?) shields are worn.
As they lack the parry / weapon special tradeoff combat guilds sacrifice when they do so.

[Bromen]

So we give DO dragonskin so they won't wear two shields. It's an upgrade.

Dragonskin= 2 bubba shields
add in another shield you can wear and you're more powerful than before.

I believe the point that's trying to be made is a DO can solo anywhere and take, at most, moderate damage during combat by using two shields. Does it really matter that you hit like a rusty dagger if you always know you'll never be brought down by what you're fighting?

Personally, I don't mind at all that anyone can wear two shields. I'd rather see monks avoiding heavy armors all together and having higher weaponskill and dmg output and halving an enemy with a spinning axe kick. But to each his own.

If a decision should be made, it should be done with input on how to compensate the loss of ac.

This would be another good argument on how specialized guild armors would be pretty darn cool.

-B

[Celephias]

I agree with your rationale Bromen. I think that monks, sneaking guilds, and spellcasters can wear heavy armour and suffer no penalties is odd. Its not to say these guilds have to be incapable to staying in a fight, but that all guilds stay in a fight by loading up on armour and getting wasted is a little strange.

But, we should be careful what we ask for. The game has more or less always worked this way AFAIK so in changing these things, there will be a lot of cries or nerf/buff depending on what side someone is on until it gets tuned up by the wizards.

[Targun]

Actually fighting styles with two shields were widely known and developed in different cultures. These were different types of these shields, which served at the same time as a weapon. There used to be a lot diversity between, from bucklers to rather thin, but long shields, with bladed edges and spikes at the and and atop of it. You may come upon many references on that and even see examples in other fantasy games, especially oriental. Google even found that there was a class in Final Fantasy that used two shields and they were... monks. That's in the topic how much sense it actually has.

In the topic of something being realistic. Because such topics under the sweet cover of 'something doesn't seem realistic' are just another rant to nerf XXX guild, which is a kind of hipocracy, I had always little admiration for, I'm going to ask you several questions. Is being hit in the head with two handed axe realistic? Or swinging 30 kilo hammer... even better 40kg sword? Not to mention doing piruets with it etc... by... a hobbit, who is twice as short as the sword? Or having your legs crashed and tears of your chunk being torn away every 5 minutes? How about ressurecting? Is ressurecting realistic in your opinion Recoba? Or perhaps running what would be several thousand miles in a second? With your pack filled with 10 halberds, 5 pikes, two platemails and 10 leather studded armours? Perhaps magic is more realistic to you then?

My point is. Any time someone uses the- 'it is not realistic' argument in a fantasy game like Genesis, I've got this impression, that either he is dumb or believes others are dumb, or as I said- it's a topic 1001 by the title- nerf something.

Regarding monks. I would personally prefere them to not wear armours at all. Saltos, head kicks in the full plates and with two shields on doesn't speak very well to my imagination. And when it comes to tanking, nothing beats old merc+pirate. My opinion is close to Tarax here. There are so many things that don't make much sense in combat on Genesis, that unless you are ready and able to swiftly rebuild, test and implement the whole system, it's a pandora's box to temper with.

I just cannot see however how it could work with armours giving different skill/stat bonuses, let alone imbuements system. Also Greywolf makes some very valid points. As he mentioned most people don't realise that monks are probably a guild, who needs to spend most time on preparations to combat each time(!) you log in. Which really renders quite heavily your gaming experience if you e.g. have windows of 1-1,5 hours several times a weak.

[Bromen]

Is there lore within the DO library to support having 2 shields as THE way they should fight?

Then again, if it does take 1.5 hours to stock up on karma, then isn't it like a MM that spends hours
to grind by herbing?

If DO are restricted to 1 shield, will there be arguments on how and why the monks are fighting unrealistically with a shield and a fist?

Maybe a more realistic way for monks to "appear" realistic is to increase their base AC, restrict them from wearing any armour at all, and increasing damage based on the karma built before grinding.

The way I imagine the a monk fight would be unarmed and unarmoured vs an armed opponent; said armed opponent starts losing EQ due to the monks skill; monk dmg increases due to the target's reduction in AC; monk wins.

The funny thing about all those pics posted with a shield being used was the lack of heavy armours covering the rest of the body. Find a pic with a dude fighting with 2 shields, something akin to mbp, black skull, and a chain hauberk. lol

-B