Character size inflation

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Arcon

Re: Character size inflation

Post by Arcon » 13 Aug 2012 13:55

Even in fantasy settings it is rediculous that a human can be stronger then a giant or a dragon, more flexible then a snake. That there is no stat-cap is just rediculous. You asked what is wrong with size, do you think it is ok that when a new player joins (s)he see that several years are needed to be on even ground with others? You said that when you were a squire for the first time you didn't dare to assist against monika, if I am not mistaken last time I saw her awake she was a hero or a titan(?). Back then her mortal title was champion(old champ), would you have liked seeing that instead of just champ you would see that she was a myth? Knowing that you would still not dare to assist against her even after a year of playing.


Why would anyone want to play that game?

Laurel

Re: Character size inflation

Post by Laurel » 13 Aug 2012 13:59

To be more productive: a comparison.
In WoW, you get SLIGHT bonuses for races, however the race-choice more predefines what class you will play.
The "classes" in Gen already have restrictions vs races - Neidars don't do other than stunties, Rangers don't really accept gobbos and such, MM's fancy elves only as meat, etc. How about making it this way?

Armber is right - elves are screwed the most in terms of combat-stats, but compared to goblins - everyone is.
You can argue that gobbos won't have fun with magic (that much). I say - with better combat stats you will gain mentals enough (examples: gobbo necros, gobbo MM's, etc.), but you will not be able to perform well with great mentals while your combats are lame.

Arcon: Laurel was attacked, unable to fight back (kattack) - not the offender, who would not dare to assist. Died with honour and within seconds :twisted:

Oh and in fantasy settings (i.e. Vampires - Masquerade) you can be really dexterous and strong. You just need to choose a more fitting setting? ;)

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cotillion
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Re: Character size inflation

Post by cotillion » 13 Aug 2012 14:43

Please don't concentrate too much on the stats themselves. They seem relevant for your as it's what's presented.
What's important in the end is how the game then uses those stats.
That can be changed without changing the stats themselves. What's the best approach depends on what we wish to accomplish.

What I've got so far is that:

- The combat advantage given to some races has a too large impact.
- It takes way too long until a new player can actually be a part of the game at the same level as older players

Creed

Re: Character size inflation

Post by Creed » 13 Aug 2012 15:00

I just had an idea.

How about a feature that temporarily makes smaller players able to play with the big ones.

Somthing like.. a team of 2 legends and an adventurer run around to get xp.
They are then attacked by another team of 3 legends.
In this setup, the adventurer isn't able to do anything at all. Probably can't even hit.

But what if it was made so, that if you were attacked, your level increased to that of 1 level below your attacker? In this case the adventurer would gain stats of a champion, for as long as the battle lasts..
That would make new players able to join in on the pvp-part of the game.

It should only work if you are the one attacked, so 15 people can't go out and make a new char at a local library, and then totally incognito run around slaying all the big myths, as they in terms then would be 15 legends..

Laurel

Re: Character size inflation

Post by Laurel » 13 Aug 2012 15:08

cotillion wrote:- It takes way too long until a new player can actually be a part of the game at the same level as older players
I disagree. To prove my point, I will just point to numerous alts - within few days of age they are between rising-hero and champion, which allows them to participate in more or less everything the game offers.
If you tell me that titan is too small to go for anything with a biggie team, I will just tell you that you have bad team/gear.

As on PvP - I don't think that's a really urging matter in Gen now, is it?

For me - as Ranger, I had no issues to take a really smallfry Calian with me, who knows how to behave and what to do. As Knight my options are less limited, however the size needs to allow to NOT die between rescues ;)
On the other hand I have all the bad memories with real biggies in teams, who were not assisting, attacking random enemies, not using specials (i.e. brawl!) or just arguing with the leader, but declining leading themselves.

For me it's not the stats, but the fun-factor that counts. Examples: I loved teaming with Mau, but hated with Morpheus or Nikiel. That is the reason why I really don't understand you people who say that you need those stats to really participate in the game. As if the vast majority of content was created for legend+ ...

Bah! I remember Dephonian Temple guards runs with Calians, who ended up deadly because of poisons there. Or kroug sweeping runs during which there was a lot if interaction and chit-chat. Can't tell me that you need myth stats for that.

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Cherek
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Re: Character size inflation

Post by Cherek » 13 Aug 2012 15:17

Creed wrote:Cherek, he said that he could get the quest exp in 15 hours. Not make myth in 15 hours.
Yes I know, and that is what I dared him to do. I'll believe it when I see it.:)

Hektor
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Re: Character size inflation

Post by Hektor » 13 Aug 2012 15:32

I think Genesis has experienced inflation on many levels. I do not think the solution is to lift, whoever is considered to be at a lower level - that is only furthering inflation.

Also can the game really support if we lift all the lower level players to myth effectiveness? I have heard it said that the game can only support 3 teams of 2-3 champ-myths in killing areas.

If anything change the system so that those on lower levels experience that their lack of stats has less of an influence on their ability.

That is, increase the significance of skills even further while reducing the usefulness of stats. This also creates a greater diversity and usefulness of healing and such.

Also reduce the tanking of larger characters by setting down rules (and introduce them :)) for the max combined levels of defense skills the non combatoriented guilds (eg clerics, mages, thief and partially ranger style guilds) can have. Perhaps introduce "armour" as an overall skill instead, where each level has an influence on the max AC you can get from wearing armour.

Communication is important as well. Many low level players (below rising hero) with occ fighter guild setups thought I was doing them a favor by teaming, whereas as a Cleric I am happy to team with low level fighters - and I communicate it, because lo and behold, I could tank some (vis a vis healing), but they easily did 60% of the damage (or more with the proper gear!)

Just random thoughts on the topic...
Lawful evil - conform or die.

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Cherek
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Re: Character size inflation

Post by Cherek » 13 Aug 2012 15:49

cotillion wrote:Please don't concentrate too much on the stats themselves. They seem relevant for your as it's what's presented.
What's important in the end is how the game then uses those stats.
That can be changed without changing the stats themselves. What's the best approach depends on what we wish to accomplish.

What I've got so far is that:

- The combat advantage given to some races has a too large impact.
- It takes way too long until a new player can actually be a part of the game at the same level as older players
Thats how I would summarize the two main problems regarding this as well.

A solution for the first problem would be to make all stats even and add other bonuses for races? Or make mental stats matter more? Or what do you all think?

Solution for the second problem I've heard have ranged from a stat cap, to letting new players start at GA or above level, or give them increased combat XP bonus / less brutality at smaller levels. And also the idea Arcon suggested about bonuses for smaller players who get attacked / are teamed has also floated around before in different ways.

Anyone have more suggestions to deal with this?

Allthough it would require more job than "turning some knobs" I would personally prefer adding a skill-tree to the game, I think it could solve both these problems AND make questing optional without making too many people angry...

In short we have a skill-tree where players based on XP can chose different abilities to specialize in. Much similar to many other games, like Skyrim och Diablo for instance.

So we make all races equal in stats, however for instance dwarves start with one or two special dwarf-like skills in the skill-tree. Maybe they have "stone skin" which make them take a little less damage than others. A small amount to begin with, but each time you "upgrade" you stone skin ability it becomes more and more useful until it reaches it's highest level. The special racial skill-tree bonuses are _only_ for that race and cannot be used by other races. Then there of course is a ton of abilities that's the same for everyone as well.

As for sizes, we cap them at champion, any more XP gathered after that is counted towards your skill-tree instead.

As for quests, there no longer is brutality, instead questing only gives XP to use for your skill-tree.

So in short. Races start with equal stats, but different special bonuses in the skill-tree. Each time you reach a new mortal level you get to chose a new ability / upgrade. However, if you want to gain more abilities you can quest. If you just hate questing you can also gain these bonuses by continuing to grind after you've reached the cap. (Or do both of course). There should almost be no limit to have much you can upgrade your bonuses, allthough each step should require more and more XP, and give less and less bonus...

If we made these change races would be much more equal but still have their own special thing. Questing would become optional, but still be rewarding for those who enjoy it. Mortal levels would be lower, more parts of the game would be challenging, and the hardest places require teams again. New players would be able to reach the highest level, or at least not be too far behind, (rising hero / hero would be an acceptable size) within reasonable time. Also, even the biggest myths today who have tons of combat XP and finished all quests would enjoy a lot of cool abilities and bonuses to chose from and upgrade, so perhaps they would not feel too bad about losing stats, since they get still get something for all their work. They could customize their characters greatly, being extremely specialized in some areas, or gain a large number of different cool abilities.

I am starting to believe more and more in this idea, originally posted by Kas regarding quest XP, but I think it can be applied to solve several problems at once.

Yes, I understand we may not have the manpower to make it happen right now, but I think it has great potential some day. And not everything has to be done at once, you could start small by just making the races equal in stats and give each of them a special ability instead.

Arcon

Re: Character size inflation

Post by Arcon » 13 Aug 2012 15:56

I would also like to see everything harder, or players weaker compared to NPCs. I don't like seing a dragon killed by someone solo without even having to prepared for that epic battle. There are people that kills the Yeti alone, hunts trolls or elves alone. Players are too powerful for the current game and then add how easy it is to get extremely powerful armours, weapons and items. With things a lot more harder people would team more and have to consider tactics before doing anything. This should also take away some of the scripting problems.

Laurel

Re: Character size inflation

Post by Laurel » 13 Aug 2012 16:08

hektor wrote:That is, increase the significance of skills even further while reducing the usefulness of stats. This also creates a greater diversity and usefulness of healing and such.
I second that and would also add one more point: gear vs skills. Lower gear impact, increase skills impact.
I mean - who cares if I have a silver-steel katana or a sardonyx katana? I should be able to decapitate my enemy just the same with both if I'm a blademaster, or?

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