Removing Limits on High Quality Items

[Amorana]

So, low and behold, I post this thought on invisibility and blocking and out of it springs an interesting conversation. Two in fact! So since the other thread should probably stay more about abilities and blocking, I wanted to move this topic into a new thread so it could be discussed fully / I wanted to bring it up as a suggestion box issue.

In the midst of the discussion, several points were brought up concerning limits on good equipment. The following were thoughts from various people on the issue:

I also think the problem is entirely solvable without modification of current abilities - get rid of the silly limits on gear. Make all "great gear" rare spawns that may or may not be found, but don't limit it to x number of items. Then it doesn't matter if someone is better at getting there than you are - you'll find it eventually if you put in the time and effort.

Personally, I think that because of the limit on items it really makes the ability to bypass blocking rooms problematic. It definitely is a case of "Luck bastards" but I think it's a mistake not to look further than that and consider what implications is has more than just being lucky.

I guess. I think the problem still is that mortals feel as though they can't play with anything but the best and what was the best 5-10 years ago is now crap. Give players a taste of armours/weapons that are gamebreaking and you create a monster, literally. We did fine before the MBP.

Guilds hoard items because they break too easily. No weapons/armours should break before stuck at scarred by battle/vbs. But instead, you have a sense of urgency to hoard 'in case they break.'

I believe that this is one reason why being able to bypass rooms/guards that would normally block is problematic. I think the abilities are not the problem in and of themselves, but when you combine the abilities with the equipment system, we have a bad situation where certain guilds have definite advantages over others. Combine that, too, with the amount of work that non-bypassing guilds have to do to get to the item just to find that it's already been taken ...

10 years ago, people also weren't fighting many of the super-sized super-abilitied mobs that exist today. The combat system also hadn't been redesigned as it is today. The fact of the matter is, the AMC, blue shin guards, silvery bracers, and golden wing dragon helm just doesn't cut it anymore. I teamed with super sized Mersereau the other day wearing 'average' gear. He was bleeding health at a rate almost too much to make it worth it.

Amorana: I however completely agree that removing this "unique" thing on items would be much helpful for many things. I am guessing this particular incident happened when mages tries to recycle their platemails, and you tried to beat them to it? Or?

As you say, with a tiny chance of random drops at all times it would be much more fair and fun for everyone I think. Fine, you couldnt recycle your stuff and always have it, which will make some people grumpy. And yes, Fluffy has decided to gather all Quickwoods to "punish me", I guess thats a perfectly fine thing to do, keeping stuff from your enemies hands. But apart from that aspect I see little good with this unique item system, and for the overall experience of the game I think it'll be much more enjoyable when you know there is ALWAYS a chance your EQ raid will be successful. In many cases these days you already know there is no use to go after certain items, since you already know a group of people have all of the said items. And they dont have it to punish you or anything, they just like hoarding and recycling. Which is fun for them, but for most people it takes away a lot of the fun in hunting for EQ though.

And really, is recycling REALLY that fun? Does even you recyclers really ENJOY It??

So here's my question: Is there any good reason to still have limitations on rare gear in terms of a fixed number? When Genesis was on a ~1 day Armageddon, I agree it made sense. High turnover meant people could get lucky and find the gear (if not always, at least sometimes.) However, now that the world takes nearly a week and a half to reset itself, combined with the rare spawning of saving items near the beginning of Armageddon and the high spawn at the end... Is there truly any reason to limit the number? Even if a guild manages to get 10 MBPs in an Arma (which, if made rare like I am saying would be a feat), with the distribution of saving gear, what... 2-4 will save? I am just curious if we could get a wizard perspective on if there's a good reason why we are sticking with what is (to me) sort of an outdated system in this regard.

It just seems to me that in some instances the play style of hurt-my-enemy-by-hoarding-this-item seems to hurt the game more than it helps, and number limits on gear promote this type of play.

So, I guess my suggestion is: let's take a look at this system and make it into more of a rare-spawn system and less of a "this quickwood hoopak is 1 of 5 in a limited edition run" type setup.

[Manglor]

I agree with you. I think the main concern I had is that by introducing the game changing weapons/armours at all you create a subculture of the game that revolves around the tracking down and hoarding of said items. If all of a sudden there was no limit and there was a chance for MBP to spawn at every kill, and suddenly there's more floating around, would that decrease the activity of that subsection of players who only really play to hunt gear?

If we'd never heard of the gigantic steel broadsword, players would perhaps have more incentive to band together against a deadly foe (Nazgul) to collect the FBB. Anyone hero or greater has access to the GSB which is a definite realistic-to-obtain 'best in slot' for a sword user.

It seems that wizards want to control the number of high-end items, which I kind of understand, but having a limit on all magical items is silly if you still have items such as the heavy steel club, dragonscale, etc. considered 'rare' items. I believe that the gap between crap items and decent items would be easier to close if Kernan always had Dragonscale and Solamnian broadsword, for example. No real reason to limit midrange items, now is there?

As an axe user, it's generally agreed that the crystal axe is the best axe. But there's a limit on them. Second, third, fourth best axes are also hard to obtain as their owners most of the time 'forget' to bring them to work that day. Why wouldn't we make everything but the very best items more rare and have the midrange-upper midrange (BSA, mithril crescent, dwarven waraxe) be substantially easier to obtain? Maybe more players would 'play' the game?

[Zar]

I have another idea:
Keep the limit.
But if limited item is not in use - destroy it.

Implement check every 4 hours + random(1 hour) that checks if item wasn't use for last hour - destroy it.

Implementation of this idea will lead that guilds will have amount of equipment according to activities of their members.

Idea is raw because some bots will use these items just to keep them in racks but it can be solved by item must be used for more than 10 minutes in last hour.

Maybe additional brainstorm will help to sharpen this idea

[Manglor]

I have another idea:
Keep the limit.
But if limited item is not in use - destroy it.

Implement check every 4 hours + random(1 hour) that checks if item wasn't use for last hour - destroy it.

Implementation of this idea will lead that guilds will have amount of equipment according to activities of their members.

Idea is raw because some bots will use these items just to keep them in racks but it can be solved by item must be used for more than 10 minutes in last hour.

Maybe additional brainstorm will help to sharpen this idea

Even if this was feasible, it just creates a vicious cycle that will ruin Genesis. Player wakes up, sees completely empty racks. The vast majority of players will log off and do something else. Genesis dies faster than that time when the Mages went on a killing spree and ruined the game and everyone left.

[Arcon]

Making them unlimited would just mean that everyone would go around with a MBP if they can wear it. People will start selling them on auction so everyone would have them and then all the players would be even more powerful and I don't think that is a good idea.

Sure the game needs legendary items from really tough enemies but they should not be able to get alone, not even for a caster. Give the MBP to the Balrog and upgrade his weapons and it would be a fair deal.
I would like to see more trinkets like rings, amulets, circlets/coronets/crowns that take up a helmet slot. But they need to bring some kind of drawback. Something that aids your tanking(magical shield, extra con etc) should slow you down. Something that speeds you up will make you more tired and worse in tanking etc. This would balance the item against the rest of the game and make people consider what their "duty" in a team would be.

The problem with "High Quality" items are that they make too much of a difference, they are too good for how hard they are to get. And they need to be really rare, they are strange and powerful artifacts that only the luckiest adventurers manage to get. I would like to see the game move a bit back in time when it comes to equipment. The "midrange" items are actually very good and should be considered good standard items.

[Mersereau]

It was the stupidest decision that helped lead to the reduction of playerbase.

Coding so people are not allowed to enjoy the game is never a good idea.

[Jhael]

I have another idea:
Keep the limit.
But if limited item is not in use - destroy it.
...
Idea is raw because some bots will use these items just to keep them in racks but it can be solved by item must be used for more than 10 minutes in last hour.

I definitely see your thought process here, but this does put the less active players of the realms in a really crappy place. If I do not play consistently I will have to go on a gear hunt every time I wake up, with no guarantee that anything will be spawned to find. I think the only way this could work is if every NPC always had their top-tier gear each time they spawned. That way each player would be responsible for acquiring a set of gear each time they woke up. Still, that puts non-consistent players at a severe disadvantage if they do not plan to log on for at least 2-4 hours at a time. Folks who are in super active guilds (ie. Mages) will always have gear, because it will always get used within the time period, while folks in not-as-active guilds (ie. Knights) will never have gear because Ydred has to sleep sometimes. Regardless, I don't think destroying items is the way to go, though.

The OP

I've heard rumors of this discussion in day-past, but I have not heard rumors as to the outcome of the conversation. I have thought for a while now that the way that items spawn ought to be changed to a flat percentage chance with no item cap. I hate using other games as a basis for why this change would be good, so I'm going to avoid that.

With the current system, there is a lot of ambiguity for equipment gathering. Each time a player considers killing an NPC specifically for their gear, they must ask themselves a few questions:
1) Will I be able to camp the respawn?
2) Does someone else already have all the items I want?
3) How far into Arma are we?
I think that two of these questions add very little to gameplay (2 and 3). I recognize that there is likely a population of the game that lives for the gear hunt, and the item limit caters very nicely to that population. However, I think it is fairly unlikely that the population of gear hunters is larger than the population of non-gear hunters or people who would play if they had gear available.

We also run into another topic very quickly when considering the current system, recycling of items. This concept further confuses gear hunting by throwing a wrench into question #2 (and #3). A player now has to consider that even if they were the first one to get to the NPC, it might not be worth killing it since someone recycled their items last Arma and currently holds the existing spawns for this Arma as well. So, are you unlucky or have all the <item>s been collected already? Will your perseverance pay off or prove to be a waste?

Question number 3, I think, is where we put a severe cap on the playerbase though. Many people have real lives: we aren't in college any more, people are buying houses, having kids, working long hours, etc. If you log on to empty or mostly empty racks and you're 5-7 days into Arma, chances are good that all of the worthwhile gear has been gathered. For many players, this translates into "Oh well, I guess I'll try again in a week." I think it comes down to the fact that people don't want to plan their lives around a game, there are other things to do.

I also think it's important to consider an idea that Manglor brought up:

I think the problem still is that mortals feel as though they can't play with anything but the best and what was the best 5-10 years ago is now crap. Give players a taste of armours/weapons that are gamebreaking and you create a monster, literally. We did fine before the MBP.

Why should those who can acquire the MBP be punished based on their activity and/or log in times? Sure they can do "fine" without it, but it's not just a singular piece of gear that becomes the problem. Consider:
Is it too late in Arma to find an MBP? Probably. What else is good? Skullplate? Is it too late in Arma to find a Skullplate? Maybe. Can't find a skullplate. What else is good? Black Platemail. Is it too late in Arma to find a Black Platemail? Probably. What else is good? etc, etc
Eventually you'll run down the full list of whatever you consider 'worthwhile' gear and decide that, actually, it's not worth it and just go do something else.

Making them unlimited would just mean that everyone would go around with a MBP if they can wear it. People will start selling them on auction so everyone would have them and then all the players would be even more powerful and I don't think that is a good idea.

Sure the game needs legendary items from really tough enemies but they should not be able to get alone, not even for a caster. Give the MBP to the Balrog and upgrade his weapons and it would be a fair deal.
I would like to see more trinkets like rings, amulets, circlets/coronets/crowns that take up a helmet slot. But they need to bring some kind of drawback. Something that aids your tanking(magical shield, extra con etc) should slow you down. Something that speeds you up will make you more tired and worse in tanking etc. This would balance the item against the rest of the game and make people consider what their "duty" in a team would be.

The problem with "High Quality" items are that they make too much of a difference, they are too good for how hard they are to get. And they need to be really rare, they are strange and powerful artifacts that only the luckiest adventurers manage to get. I would like to see the game move a bit back in time when it comes to equipment. The "midrange" items are actually very good and should be considered good standard items.

The idea is that this would not be possible. Spawn rate of the NPC coupled with a percent chance of the gear spawning will automatically put a soft cap on how many MBPs can exist in the realms. If someone sells an MBP on auction, they are still forfeiting the item and are relying on a percentage chance that they'll be able to find another. It's also important to consider how you consider the power of an item. What is 'mid-range'? What is 'high quality'? Who do we 'balance' these items to? Is 'mid range' the same for Irk and it is for Syrk (they both use axes)? Can Irk make an reasonable progress with a bloody steel axe? Can Syrk? My point is really just that these concepts are very subjective. Celephias might consider anything less than MBP to be low-end gear and not worth it. Kiara might consider the carved quickwood to be god-tier.

Certainly this change would not be as simple as removing the item cap and calling it a day. The drop rates will have to be tweaked. Scenarios need to be considered. But, I think that the current system hinders gameplay more than anything and has really outgrown it's purpose.

[Chanele]

Very good note Jhael, I could not have written it better myself

[Celephias]

Jhael - I don't disagree with the point regarding other things going on in people's lives. Quite true. though, if I decide I want to play, I want to play, so empty and underpopulated racks won't deter me. I may have to adjust my expectations about what I will be doing. I can't imagine logging in and seeing lame racks and saying 'screw it', though I can imagine maybe some would.

I would say that there is a (generally) ideal load out where you have the best of everything you can use and ideally try to have that. I agree with (I believe it was) Manglor's point though: its doesn't have to be a situation like the best or bust but rather playing with what you have (and most likely trying to incrementally upgrade/improve on it). I've obviously been in both situations and enjoy them both for different reasons.

I also agree that there are those who really enjoy collecting gear. I think this is a valid play style too.

[Jhael]

Jhael - I don't disagree with the point regarding other things going on in people's lives. Quite true. though, if I decide I want to play, I want to play, so empty and underpopulated racks won't deter me. I may have to adjust my expectations about what I will be doing. I can't imagine logging in and seeing lame racks and saying 'screw it', though I can imagine maybe some would.

I would say that there is a (generally) ideal load out where you have the best of everything you can use and ideally try to have that. I agree with (I believe it was) Manglor's point though: its doesn't have to be a situation like the best or bust but rather playing with what you have (and most likely trying to incrementally upgrade/improve on it). I've obviously been in both situations and enjoy them both for different reasons.

I also agree that there are those who really enjoy collecting gear. I think this is a valid play style too.

I tend to follow your style on this topic, honestly. If I want to play, I'll play regardless of what's available. I do know that there are people that are quite the opposite. A clear example: there was a time a while back when the activity of Jenya and Drakon was directly related to the quality of the Blue Dragonarmy racks. I understand that Jenya was known to say things like "Get me a runie and I'll kill people." These are, obviously, two very specific examples, but I believe that the population exists. This is also a second-and story, so if someone knows better I welcome correction.

Similarly on Manglor's point, I don't personally agree that I must have the best gear or I won't bother, but there are people who feel this way. I think that the way the current equipment system is set up, with item caps, etc, it effectively caps the playerbase by discouraging those who only want to pop in for an hour or two every so often and have fun playing from logging in frequently or at all.