Stats - Diminishing Returns

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Diminishing Returns on Stats?

Yes, please!
10
48%
No, thank you.
7
33%
Not convinced yet.
4
19%
 
Total votes: 21

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Zhar
Wizard
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Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Zhar » 03 Feb 2014 23:13

Running a poll since I'm interested in player's perspective on the matter. What if stats would start giving diminishing returns after certain point?

What it translates to is all the big players retaining their "uber" status, it being exactly just as hard to get to myth etc. but the impact of it being much less. Don't get me wrong, it would still be beneficial to get more and more stats, except instead of it giving you say 300% advantage (comparing theoretical myth to titan for the sake of example) it would only give you 15%.

I think this could be a good thing for the game. It would keep the elite status of myths and powergrinders, still provide an advantage but overall the huge gaps between player population would be pretty much closed (including racial imbalances at the high end of the curve people were complaining about), leading to less resentment and providing for a more playing field in all respects. Not to mention the entire game becoming harder, more challenging and, in my opinion, interesting.

What are your thoughts on that? I'm especially interested on hearing feedback on this idea from people who have myth+ sized characters, as they would probably feel the most impact if such a change was introduced.

P. S.

I have added the ability to change your vote in the poll, if you change your mind due to arguments used in the discussion (if one would follow) ;)
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

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Habiki
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Habiki » 04 Feb 2014 03:20

But what would we do then??? The numbers you propose imply a dramatic nerf on the high-end. I'm not opposed to switching to hard-mode.

It would be interesting to see the behavior patterns transition away from grinding and more towards social activities like RP, PvP (including arena / tournament), and... Fireball! I suspect people would log less hours without the grinding, but maybe opt to use their time more "valuably?"

Kiara
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Kiara » 04 Feb 2014 03:43

Habiki wrote:But what would we do then??? It would be interesting to see the behavior patterns transition away from grinding and more towards social activities like RP, PvP (including arena / tournament), and... Fireball! I suspect people would log less hours without the grinding, but maybe opt to use their time more "valuably?"
Fireball is not appreciated enough! I'd love a Fireball tournament!

About the idea... Would it not be easier to just lower the soft cap? That way people wouldn't have supreme+++ stats, and they would actually be able to see their real stats when meditating. It would also seem more logical than changing stats. What you are saying is going from titanic to supreme is just a very small change, but it seems like its a huge change, since it takes a lot of time, and the sublevels remain the same. It sounds confusing and complicated to me.

Again, I would suggest the easier and less confusing solution of just lowering the soft cap so it hits earlier. Basically making everyone's stats smaller, but the XP needed to gain the highest mortal levels could still be the same, might even add MORE mortal levels, so the grinders have something more to grind for. But since the soft cap hits much earlier it wont mean nearly as much in stats, just in titles.

But your idea works too, I just think it seems odd to add another variable. Like when the new quest XP progress bar was added, which is another scale compared to the combat XP progress bar, but the name of the levels etc are the same. It's confusing. I think for your idea to work we'd probably need to invent some new names on affected stats... so it easier to understand. You know like...instead of titanic - epic - immortal - supreme, there is titanic - slightly more titanic - somewhat more titanic - more titanic. Obviously it needs to be much better since "slightly more titanic" just sounds silly. But you get the idea. Something that makes it clear that an improvement at this high level isnt as big of a change as the lower ones. But with such a change it could probably work... yeah...

Except our big myths will probably hate it of course. But like you said, would be interesting to hear from them.:)

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Zhar
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Zhar » 04 Feb 2014 11:14

Simply lowering the cap would be a much bigger nerf. The suggestion I made effectively lowers discrepancies at the high end, yes. But it also makes an outstanding difference within certain race. Lets use Irk and some "smallfry" titan-level dwarf here. By lowering the cap, they would be practically equal. With diminishing returns Irk would have slightly more Con, Dis etc. but much, much more Dex for example. This is where his hard work and years of grinding come to shine, he effectively managed to overcome his race's weaknesses and can even compete with elves when it comes to Dex and Int (a myth elf would beat him in this regard though, although the difference wouldn't be as drastic).

You could still grind away at your leisure, even if just to get this slight edge over others. And before you reached the point of diminishing returns in all stats, it would still be quite a way from when you start to get them in your primary race stats in some cases.

Consider it this way. You get to the (hypothetical) titan level as a goblin. By that point you (probably) hit the point of diminishing returns in con but you still have all the way to myth to work on your mentals and what not (since they won't produce diminishing returns until you get to epic/immortal in them or whatever point is set for stats).
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Kiara
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Kiara » 04 Feb 2014 12:51

Zhar: Oh I get now. Well that's an interesting suggestion.

Manglor
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Manglor » 04 Feb 2014 16:43

You can't have it both ways. You can't create a game where the grind for stats is very important, implement rankings to see who's the biggest, etc. and then suddenly take it all away. There should have been a hardcap long ago if that was the case.

Cute idea, but not the least bit realistic.

Kiara
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Kiara » 04 Feb 2014 16:58

Manglor wrote:You can't have it both ways. You can't create a game where the grind for stats is very important, implement rankings to see who's the biggest, etc. and then suddenly take it all away. There should have been a hardcap long ago if that was the case.

Cute idea, but not the least bit realistic.
I actually think we exaggerate the risk of people leaving from potential dramatic changes. Even if we capped everyone at like champion... I dont think the game would be empty. I honestly dont even think our playerbase would be that much different from now.

Why?

Because most of our current playerbase have been around for so long, and are so attached to this game, that I doubt people would quit over something as "little" as a stat nerf. The game means more to us than that, most players would adapt and keep playing is what I think.

Manglor
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Manglor » 04 Feb 2014 19:27

Kiara wrote:Because most of our current playerbase have been around for so long, and are so attached to this game, that I doubt people would quit over something as "little" as a stat nerf. The game means more to us than that, most players would adapt and keep playing is what I think.
Keep in mind that the game itself has not changed dramatically in a very long time. The way I look at it, there are three reasons to play Genesis:

1) To grind/team/fight for rankings (xp train)
2) to RP with your friends and enemies (sip kahve)
3) to PVP (rewarded by your hard work in #1)

If you take away the grind, the reach for huge stats which is very fun and a real reason to play in a lot of cases, what are you left with?

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Zhar
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Zhar » 04 Feb 2014 22:44

Manglor wrote:You can't have it both ways. You can't create a game where the grind for stats is very important, implement rankings to see who's the biggest, etc. and then suddenly take it all away. There should have been a hardcap long ago if that was the case.

Cute idea, but not the least bit realistic.
But it's not about that at all. With this solution you're not taking all that away from the players (and that's the beauty of it). It's just as hard to get to myth, higher stats still give you an edge (just not as big as now, that's the whole point), rankings don't lose any of the value etc.

I guess people misunderstand the concept here. It's not that we're putting a cap on stats, where they won't grow any more. On the contrary, you can grow them ad infinitum (this being the soft cap currently in place) except past certain point they don't count for as much in their effective use as they used to. To be honest, it puts even more incentive on growing bigger since you'll need a lot more of it to get a significant edge.

Example:
Stat below or equal to the diminishing returns point gives you 1 something for 1 stat point.
Above this point you get 0.05 something for 1 stat point (this, of course, counted as a bonus to the usual 1 for 1 you get from stats below that point).

It's still worthwile to do that, except it's not as rewarding as before (but I guess it becomes even more elite since you must really dedicate to it to reap the benefits).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Zar
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Zar » 04 Feb 2014 22:58

Do I understand correctly?
If I am myth... and I can solo orc captain. I won't be able to do it after change?
Not even close fight?

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