Stats - Diminishing Returns

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Diminishing Returns on Stats?

Yes, please!
10
48%
No, thank you.
7
33%
Not convinced yet.
4
19%
 
Total votes: 21

Zar
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Zar » 06 Feb 2014 16:05

I am not huge as Mersereau, but I am definitely with him on this point.

This will be a huge blow for big players.

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Zhar
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Zhar » 06 Feb 2014 16:25

I'm open to any suggestions and counter-proposals.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Jhael
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Jhael » 06 Feb 2014 16:36

Maybe it's time to admit that Genesis will forever remain imbalanced in this regard. From what I can tell, the biggest players of the realms will never agree to any sort of nerf on themselves (and why should they?).

Perhaps, too, it's time to change our expectations of Genesis. It keeps getting said that many people want to see PvP return to the game, but that the size disparity is too large. Maybe the focus needs to be shifted away from PvP, let's accept that we will never see the return of PvP and attempt to make other aspects of the game more exciting. Those who propose solutions to the PvP problem are often told they are stupid and clearly they've never put the effort into growing their character (in some form or another).

The conversation on how to force PvP back into the realms has been going on for entirely too long and has been resisted by the player base in so many different ways. The disappearance of PvP has been explained in so many ways, maybe it's time to admit that these are explanations but excuses. Isn't now a good a time as any to cut our losses and move on?

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Amorana
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Amorana » 06 Feb 2014 17:20

Zhar wrote:
Kvator wrote:just my 2 cc:
dunno if it's hard to code etc, but maybe leave the stats as it is now in PvE,
but make some caps when players enter PvP mode (so if titan attacks/is attacked by turbo myth he will feel like fighting for example champion) + I am not big fan of 'fixed' caps - it would be funnier if each race would have its own caps.

cheers
I'm sorry but that's not feasible. Imagine someone trying to solo some uber NPC and he suddenly gets attacked by a hidden player... Too much room to exploit.
Not true. Put a check into place that makes it impossible to initiate PVP while a person is in combat with a NPC, and put a "cooldown" (like the one on teleporting) on initiating PVE combat after taking place in PVP combat.

I actually think Kvator's idea would work quite well, if the conditions I mention above were put into place.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Kiara
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Kiara » 06 Feb 2014 19:16

Jhael wrote:Maybe it's time to admit that Genesis will forever remain imbalanced in this regard. From what I can tell, the biggest players of the realms will never agree to any sort of nerf on themselves (and why should they?).

Perhaps, too, it's time to change our expectations of Genesis. It keeps getting said that many people want to see PvP return to the game, but that the size disparity is too large. Maybe the focus needs to be shifted away from PvP, let's accept that we will never see the return of PvP and attempt to make other aspects of the game more exciting. Those who propose solutions to the PvP problem are often told they are stupid and clearly they've never put the effort into growing their character (in some form or another).

The conversation on how to force PvP back into the realms has been going on for entirely too long and has been resisted by the player base in so many different ways. The disappearance of PvP has been explained in so many ways, maybe it's time to admit that these are explanations but excuses. Isn't now a good a time as any to cut our losses and move on?
I am starting to feel the same way. Maybe it's simply time to accept that the majority of the current players simply not not wish to engage in PVP. Most of those who did in the past has probably either left the game, or changed their style of play?

As for myths not wanting to be nerfed... of course most of them dont want to. Who would?

The other question is, should the wizards care what the current players want?

I think if I were in Gorboth's shoes I would decide on choices to make the game as _I_ wanted it and simply dont care about the current players. Let those who dont like it adapt or leave. Would it kill the game? I really dont think so. I think deciding on a clear path would have a chance of saving it instead. I think Gorboth and the admin should simply decide on what type of game they want and go for it. Not try to please everyone. Every suggestion will always be met with a portion of the players not liking it. That's just how it is.

Should Genesis be a game filled with PVP, conflicts and politics? If yes, then change it to become such a game and attract those who like it. Let those who dont like it leave.

Should Genesis be a game of cooperation, collecting and character growth? If yes, then not much needs to be done, just attract more players who like those types of games and accept some of those who dont will continue to leave / not play.

Should Genesis be a game of roleplaying then... well you get the idea...

Is it possible to have all of it? Yeah maybe... but probably not without some drastic changes... and it's probably easier to NOT have all of it, and decide what's most important.

Anyway, I am not in Gorboth's shoes...:)

This suggested change about diminishing stats would probably be good if the admin wants the game to become more about PVP and conflicts. If not, then it's probably not really needed. So I guess first someone needs to decide if more conflict is wanted or not in Genesis.

I dont play much. I like competition, in the form of events, or PVP. Since there is very little PVP I mostly play during events, but I've been trying to make an effort to get some PVP, and its definitely possible, but it takes two to tango, and currently there seem to be very few players who wants to dance. Also, the stat and guild imbalances clearly aren't helping either... so yeah, I do think changes that makes PVP more fun would make me play more. But it would probably make others who dont like it play less...

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Kas
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Kas » 06 Feb 2014 22:44

Regarding Pvp, it's also an issue that guilds like Da's and AA's are practically nonexistent.

If MM was allied with DA's in a hypothetical scenario, the last week(s), I could have gathered a single angmarim, a single Da, maybe two mages. At average, a total of four people.

The rest is in somewhat alignment with the worshipper/calians/scop/ trio, or uncompatible in siding with my warparty. Meanwhile, I could in theory assemble (provided they wanted to participate (but the same goes with the angmarim and the da)) no less than eight people on the other side. At times, ten, or twelve+ people what are in opposition to the angmars/da/mm, and this is actually quite consistent.

It's very hard to warr when the "opposition" is more or less not present in the game. Ofcourse, during wars/events, you see some more come into activity but the point still stands.

AA has pretty much been a dead guild for a long time - I don't think you can warr against the guild with no active online members(the count is usually 1). Dragonarmies (red and blue) are probably in better shape, but they are even in combination not that far off the AA's. These two guilds are the only regular evil occ-guilds left in the game(2).

Then you have the MM, which doesn't really base around regular warring, but they should be added to the pool nonetheless. The average count of active members online are about 2 (there are about four or five active mages in total), but the guild is generally in good shape.

I see a couple of ogres and glads around, and perhaps a mercenary or two that isn't bound to the Calia trio, so all in all, I expect to see some "contacts", aka small scale pvp/scirmishes in the game over time.

Right now when this post is composed, an evil warparty can consist of about 3 players, while the "opposition" can be about 11+. This rate seems to be rather consistent(I measured about two weeks), and _may_ explain why some trends, specially in Pvp, seems to become rarer and rarer.

What I put on one side of the chessboard are these guilds :Anyone in worshippers, Calians, Knights, Rangers, Scops and Neidars VS Da's(red and blue), Pot, MM and AA.

There are a few wildcards (merc-necros, glads, ogres, su's), but I left those out.


This is no means an absolute or complete overview and the trends may be diffent at times when I'm not active, but it may perhaps give us an explanation(in addition to the others) why pvp is in its current state today.

Thoughts?
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

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Mersereau
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Mersereau » 06 Feb 2014 22:54

PVP is not balanced, not with the way guilds, weapons, armours, herbs, potions, and rooms are coded. Unless there is a level playing field, it's really silly to engage in it. Scaling all the players size back just for PVP when all the other aforementioned things are still out of whack is like trying to plug a dam with 40,000 holes with just your thumb.
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
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Althyrian
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Althyrian » 07 Feb 2014 03:48

Mersereau wrote:So basically your philosophy is, "Sorry all you people who've invested so much time, screw you, we don't value anything you've put into your character."

The only real problem with size is with PVP, and if you think it's is the only major issue that makes it imbalanced you really need to open your eyes.
If believing you are so persecuted helps you sleep at night then sure...That's exactly my philosophy.

I would love for a hard cap to be coded and happily wave goodbye to half the player-base if it meant in 10 years time we had 50 or 60 characters online at a time, twice as many wizards, dynamic RP, PvP, and full guilds at war. And that is exactly what I think would happen and is exactly what I think we would have right now if ten years ago someone had coded a hard cap.

Unfortunately it was/is/forever will be decided that a hard cap would not be good for the game. Because of this people bend over backwards trying to come up with ideas that are not nearly as effective at improving the game but might have a chance of being coded and inevitably what they get in response is "but...I won't be able to solo the orc captain' and "but...what about all my hard work" or "but...you don't have a myth so you couldn't possibly understand what the game needs". Its been like this for 15 years almost word for word.

I am all for any idea that limits the effective size of the larger characters. This one is better than most.

Althyrian
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Althyrian » 07 Feb 2014 04:26

Jhael wrote:Maybe it's time to admit that Genesis will forever remain imbalanced in this regard. From what I can tell, the biggest players of the realms will never agree to any sort of nerf on themselves (and why should they?).

Perhaps, too, it's time to change our expectations of Genesis. It keeps getting said that many people want to see PvP return to the game, but that the size disparity is too large. Maybe the focus needs to be shifted away from PvP, let's accept that we will never see the return of PvP and attempt to make other aspects of the game more exciting. Those who propose solutions to the PvP problem are often told they are stupid and clearly they've never put the effort into growing their character (in some form or another).

The conversation on how to force PvP back into the realms has been going on for entirely too long and has been resisted by the player base in so many different ways. The disappearance of PvP has been explained in so many ways, maybe it's time to admit that these are explanations but excuses. Isn't now a good a time as any to cut our losses and move on?
The reason these discussions just end up going in circles is because the underlying problem with Genesis is unlimited growth and unfortunately it has been decided that nothing will be done about it. All the other game wide problems in genesis can be traced back to this one issue:

1) Unlimited growth leads to
2) Size imbalance problems which leads to
3) PvP and RP problems which are related to the
4) Death penalty problems which may lead to
5) People leaving Genesis (if they haven't already simply because of the size imbalance) which leads to
6) An underpopulated environment which is related to a
6) Less than exciting newbie experience which leads to a
7) Difficulty in attracting new players to the game which results in
8) A stagnating player base and underpopulated guilds which is related to a
9) Less than exciting gameplay experience for just about everyone EXCEPT for
10) Those people who just want to keep growing and whom we don't want to offend in the slightest because if we did they would leave and we can't have that because then we might be able to fix the unlimited growth problem (see #1 above) which it has already been decided we can't fix because it would be bad for the game.

Sheldon trying to find a place to sit is less ridiculous than this.

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Kas
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Re: Stats - Diminishing Returns

Post by Kas » 07 Feb 2014 09:50

Let's say we set a limit of champ for the sake of argument. For those above, what other gameplay options beside gearfarming and statgrowth do you suggest? I suggested lateral growth. Other ideas?

Endgame content is another.
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

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