Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Discuss ideas for how to make the game better. Wizards, take note!
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Post by Kiara » 07 Feb 2014 16:12

Instead of hijacking Zhar's thread I figured I create my own.

These are my suggestions to make PVP more fun and balanced. Without ruining anything for anyone really. And without any major changes having to be made.

For PVP, balance is the absolute most important thing. Rewards would be great, but we cant have that unless we have _some_ type of balance. We may not need mortal size balance, but at least we need some balance in guild power and crowd control abilities.

GUILD BALANCE

I never understood why we cant just "quick fix" the inferior guilds a little... why we have to wait for full recodes. Add a zero or something to the damage output of "sling" for kenders, and it would probably be a decent guild. Give rangers some better fighting skills for now so they can fight a little better? Increase PoTs healing so they become more useful both in a team and solo. And similar for other non-recoded and weak guilds. Yes, you wont be able to use the new and improved way of balancing things, but does it really have to be THAT complicated?It's no secret some guilds are seriously weaker, you'll just have to play oin those guild for a few weeks to know they are, and know what would make it better. A quick fix would probably make those guilds so much more playable during the next half a decade or so while a "real" recode i being worked on, or waited on.

I dont really think it has to be much more advanced than that.

Now I know Gorboth doesnt believe in quick fixes... but sometimes I think they could work very well. I mean, take kenders, they have been "waiting" for a recode in what is it now, 7 years? YEARS. And they're still furthest down the list. So it might probably be another 7 years. I mean really? Would a quick fix be such a bad idea then? To make them playable? During that decade and half? Several other guild have been, or are in the same situation. I say just do it. It's probably a day's work for one person? And it'll improve the game experience for lots of players.

PVP ABILITIES

Also balancing PVP abilities could be pretty easy too. Remove crowd control abilities from ALL guilds. There, crowd control completely balanced. Boring? Everyone the same? No. Guilds will be as unique as ever, but EVERYONE would have the same crowd control abilities, or lack of it, making it much more even. Keep global black as it is if we dont want much kills, or, make it more potent to get more action. For instance, make it so you automatically block all exits instead of one. Basically "Kiara grabs hold of you when you try to escape, you struggle to get away". Then just adjust how long the struggling should be, and we have a simple ONE variable crowd control ability that is the same for everyone, making PVP much more equal and fun.

STAT DIFFERENCES

This has been suggested before I think, and I still think its a great idea. Add a PVP team bonus, and make it more effective the smaller you are. Its logical, you cover for each others weaknesses, and the better you get the less weakness you have, so the bonus is less. That way two heroes can be equal to a myth when teamed. So myths will still benefit from their grind, and they will still have a just as big advantage in PVE, and still have an advantage in PVP, but it would also make it possible for _everyone_ to enjoy PVP. All you need is a friend. So basically, all other things equal, Kiara and Syrk (champions) would have a chance against one Fluffy (supermyth). However, Fluffy would still win easily alone. But it would mean no matter how big you are PVP will still be dangerous, since even if you pick on a hero, that hero could bring a friend and actually beat you.

Two myths would always beat two legends of course, but three legends would probably beat two myths. And so on. Bigger size will always be an advantage. But bigger numbers will be even more important, thus evening out the huge differences in stats we have, without messing with stats nerfs or anything like that.

So there you go. My recipe for more fun PVP without extreme coding efforts needed. And once this is done and working, we could consider how penalties / rewards for PVP could enhance the experience even more.

User avatar
Zhar
Wizard
Posts: 782
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Post by Zhar » 07 Feb 2014 16:35

Guild Balance is not something easily achieved by simply changing some numbers, adding or removing specials etc. For the most part guilds are "balanced" by tax (ie. how much you pay for what you get in return). Guild that pays 25% tax will always be more powerful than one paying 10%. The recodes are necessary because of all the changes in gamedriver and how things are calculated, their code is simply out of date and needs a complete review.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

User avatar
Amorana
Expert
Posts: 296
Joined: 04 Nov 2013 20:26

Re: Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Post by Amorana » 07 Feb 2014 16:41

Kiara wrote:
STAT DIFFERENCES

This has been suggested before I think, and I still think its a great idea. Add a PVP team bonus, and make it more effective the smaller you are. Its logical, you cover for each others weaknesses, and the better you get the less weakness you have, so the bonus is less. That way two heroes can be equal to a myth when teamed. So myths will still benefit from their grind, and they will still have a just as big advantage in PVE, and still have an advantage in PVP, but it would also make it possible for _everyone_ to enjoy PVP. All you need is a friend. So basically, all other things equal, Kiara and Syrk (champions) would have a chance against one Fluffy (supermyth). However, Fluffy would still win easily alone. But it would mean no matter how big you are PVP will still be dangerous, since even if you pick on a hero, that hero could bring a friend and actually beat you.

Two myths would always beat two legends of course, but three legends would probably beat two myths. And so on. Bigger size will always be an advantage. But bigger numbers will be even more important, thus evening out the huge differences in stats we have, without messing with stats nerfs or anything like that.

So there you go. My recipe for more fun PVP without extreme coding efforts needed. And once this is done and working, we could consider how penalties / rewards for PVP could enhance the experience even more.
This is a bit harder to code than I think you're realizing. For example, what form would a team bonus take? Extra defense? Extra resistance? Extra damage? All of the above?

How would it look? Like Calians defending each other in combat? Would your skin magically grow hard as you were strengthened by your foes?

Depending on what type of bonuses we're talking about, there is a lot that would need to be considered, weighed and coded.
Zhar wrote: "Man, this guild I'm in is so god damn powerful! Please nerf or I'll have to leave it because it's no fun any more..."

Kvator
Champion
Posts: 555
Joined: 02 Sep 2010 21:25

Re: Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Post by Kvator » 07 Feb 2014 18:34

Kiara wrote:Now I know Gorboth doesnt believe in quick fixes... but sometimes I think they could work very well. I mean, take kenders, they have been "waiting" for a recode in what is it now, 7 years? YEARS. And they're still furthest down the list. So it might probably be another 7 years. I mean really? Would a quick fix be such a bad idea then? To make them playable? During that decade and half? Several other guild have been, or are in the same situation. I say just do it. It's probably a day's work for one person? And it'll improve the game experience for lots of players.
lol just wrote almost same stuff in the next topic (in a shorther way :P) - SS it's such a great guild (emotes, titles, theme all the stuff) with a power comparable to occ militia... rly just making quick buff to sling dmg would mean a lot to this guild (I've left them finally due to the fact I was doing shiet solo and in teams I felt like a burden - no dmg, no real tankiness - sure dodge is great, but during cooldown I was getting smashed, and it won't help vs specials) - as a legend (over halfway to myth) ss/pirate I was doing less than rising heroes/heroes in other guilds... (other issue is availability of hoopaks :/)
Now I am enjoying ogres - another great guild, but still feel like it's a shame how this guild potential is being wasted

cheers

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Post by Kiara » 07 Feb 2014 21:10

Zhar wrote:Guild Balance is not something easily achieved by simply changing some numbers, adding or removing specials etc. For the most part guilds are "balanced" by tax (ie. how much you pay for what you get in return). Guild that pays 25% tax will always be more powerful than one paying 10%. The recodes are necessary because of all the changes in gamedriver and how things are calculated, their code is simply out of date and needs a complete review.
Tax has absolutely no effect in PVP, so its a very poor way of balancing PVP. If we want balanced PVP we should probably throw away the whole idea of tax. But thats another discussion. I am not looking for perfect balance, I am looking for something a little more playable.

I didn't say stop the recodes either. I just think we could make it a little more fun to play in the not recoded guilds until they are recoded. Because it can take another half a decade. Or more. And no it doesn't have to be super complicated. This isn't WoW. Its a game with what, a hundred or so unique players? Everything doesn't have to be mathematically perfect. You just have to play the game a little to realise how utterly imbalanced some guilds are compared to others, and I doubt it's that hard to up them a little with the current code.

Review all the code you want, but why not make something that work until someone has the time or interest to review that code?

Has the game been more balanced since the recodes started than before they did? No. The opposite. And it will continue to be that for many years to come. And the longer it is, the more the game suffers.

Put on a band aid, until its properly fixed, to stop the bleeding until someone can use the healing spell and heal it for real.:)

Thats what I think.
Last edited by Kiara on 07 Feb 2014 21:30, edited 1 time in total.

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Post by Kiara » 07 Feb 2014 21:20

Amorana wrote:
Kiara wrote:
STAT DIFFERENCES

This has been suggested before I think, and I still think its a great idea. Add a PVP team bonus, and make it more effective the smaller you are. Its logical, you cover for each others weaknesses, and the better you get the less weakness you have, so the bonus is less. That way two heroes can be equal to a myth when teamed. So myths will still benefit from their grind, and they will still have a just as big advantage in PVE, and still have an advantage in PVP, but it would also make it possible for _everyone_ to enjoy PVP. All you need is a friend. So basically, all other things equal, Kiara and Syrk (champions) would have a chance against one Fluffy (supermyth). However, Fluffy would still win easily alone. But it would mean no matter how big you are PVP will still be dangerous, since even if you pick on a hero, that hero could bring a friend and actually beat you.

Two myths would always beat two legends of course, but three legends would probably beat two myths. And so on. Bigger size will always be an advantage. But bigger numbers will be even more important, thus evening out the huge differences in stats we have, without messing with stats nerfs or anything like that.

So there you go. My recipe for more fun PVP without extreme coding efforts needed. And once this is done and working, we could consider how penalties / rewards for PVP could enhance the experience even more.
This is a bit harder to code than I think you're realizing. For example, what form would a team bonus take? Extra defense? Extra resistance? Extra damage? All of the above?

How would it look? Like Calians defending each other in combat? Would your skin magically grow hard as you were strengthened by your foes?

Depending on what type of bonuses we're talking about, there is a lot that would need to be considered, weighed and coded.
Well a stat nerf or hard cap is probably "easier" but pretty unlikely to happen. This may be a little more work, but it doesn't mess up the game for anyone either.

There are many ways to do it, you suggested a few ideas there. It could be very creative and very complicated, but it could also be simpler. I would probably do it with something "hidden", so players generally just see something like "You and Amorana spread out in a battle formation to take on Fluffy ". And while in formation, which means you're teamed up and engaged in fight against someone else and have a number advantage, you get a boost in damage and AC perhaps... or you simply get higher stats (hidden) for the duration of the fight, but it is not something that really affect your true stats. I am no technical expert when it comes to fighting, but I am sure it can be done without being overly complex.

Logically, in real life, being 2 vs 1, or 3 vs 2, etc should come with a strategic advantage, so it would make perfect sense if when fighting someone 2 vs 1, those 2 would spread out and take on the 1 from different sides, or something. And to represent this advantage we could could add some sort of damage and defence bonus for the ones who have the greater number. Be that in inflicted damage, AC, skills, or stats, or something else, thats up for those who know the numbers to decide whats the best way to do it.

User avatar
Kas
Legend
Posts: 771
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54

Re: Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Post by Kas » 07 Feb 2014 21:39

It does make sense to add an assistance-bonus team of 2 vs a single opponent, and zero bonus if both parties are equal etc.

Though, should two wanderers be able to defeat a legend? My point is, the bonus is cool, and logical, but in percents, how much aid are we speaking of here? :)
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

Kiara
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: 03 May 2013 16:20

Re: Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Post by Kiara » 07 Feb 2014 22:21

Kas wrote:It does make sense to add an assistance-bonus team of 2 vs a single opponent, and zero bonus if both parties are equal etc.

Though, should two wanderers be able to defeat a legend? My point is, the bonus is cool, and logical, but in percents, how much aid are we speaking of here? :)
Good question. No I don't think two wanderers should defeat a legend. For from it. It has to be tweaked to a realistic level. And of course the bigger the myth you are, the harder it will be even for teams.

It seems to me, by looking on our characters, most people who start a new character seem to fairly quickly reach hero/titan level.

What it takes for a truly new character to reach say, hero, status I dont know. I guess we could ask someone... Aristos perhaps? A year? Or more? less?

Anyway, the point is I think _everyone_ should be able to participate in PVP after reaching a size that can be reached fairly quickly and doesn't seem as daunting as legend or myth.

So what is reasonable? Two heroes can match one smallish myth perhaps? Two champions can and should beat even the biggest players we have?

I dont know, but I think if you can participate and actually make a difference as a hero in PVP, no matter who you're fighting, then I think we're on to something. Because hero is something an old player creating a new char can reach fairly quickly without extreme grinding and/or questing, and I think it's something even a truly new player realistically can achieve within.... a year... or less maybe?

And just to clarify, this only applies if you're at an advantage in numbers. If you're equally matched in numbers, the myths will obviously win. The goal here is to provide a bigger edge in a fight if you have superior numbers, so even smaller player can make up for the extreme stat differences by bringing a friend.

User avatar
Kas
Legend
Posts: 771
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 17:54

Re: Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Post by Kas » 07 Feb 2014 22:41

I think the gap from wanderer to champ/legend is smaller than champ to the supermyths.

Two champs besting a supermyth seems pretty powerful, the increase in percent is probably pretty steep, the difference in size, effort and xp may be wast. I would rather see two babymyths getting a shot at the supermyth as more realistic than for example two champions (let's imagine all of them are gladiators, same stat distributions and gear).

I think such a system should give a percentbased aid for every man you have more vs the opponent group, and the aid scales ofcourse to your relative size like specials and attacks do now.

If you have 1 more than the opponents group, your team gets 5% more "combat efficiency(5% more damage, 5% whatever)". It could scale logaritmically or linear, up to a certain point (let's say 6 people, just to illustrate a cap).

If everyone in your team attacks me and all gain a 5% more combat efficiency/damage, over time it may be quite a powerful boost. Surely, you may not kill Fluffy with it (but add more people), but it still helps.
Might and Glory flaming for changing dawn, ancient power revealed of an iron crown, clear and cold and shining so far and bright, crush the world in one clash of your binding light.

Gû kîbum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi. Akha - gûm-ishi ashi gurum!

Chanele
Titan
Posts: 510
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 12:39

Re: Kiara's quick fix for PVP

Post by Chanele » 07 Feb 2014 22:46

Can we please define "super myth" so we talk about the same category here?

I dont really care for the oppinions of the ones I call super myths, not a single one of them has reach their staus with fair tactics and according to game rules. Go go hard cap!

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/