Herbs needs to be looked at

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Greneth

Re: Herbs needs to be looked at

Post by Greneth » 17 Apr 2015 00:06

Kilrayne wrote:I understand the point, but still think this is a cart before the horse sort of thing. Are you really suggesting that we should nerf the utility of an alcohol/herb combination because the healing of utility is negatively impacted? Again, why not ask for an examination of your guilds' respective abilities? And where does the herb nerf end? Should we nerf kuko, so that tricksters, rangers and thieves can enjoy walking around in stealth without threat of detection? Why, any layperson could get their hands on a curugwath and hide in a room without any one seeing them. Maybe we should nerf that too. What about guilds' ability to cleanse poisons? There are a myriad of herbs that treat those: nerf em.

At some point, the examination needs to shift to the guilds and their abilities rather than to consumables and items that manufacture similiar abilities but at a fraction of efficacy.
No I'm suggesting that we nerf the alcohol/herb consumption because it gives fighters a constant source of great healing without limits other then how many herbs you carry. "Again", Personal Gain < Whats best for the game.

You're using really stupid examples, first off anyone with the gardeners can see AA/Thieves/Tricksters you don't need Kuko, occasionally they may get one over you. The only ones who get away are the RoN, I believe it's highly stupid. Kuko should be changed to a *Very* short detect all within a room. Why use curugwath thats more pointless the mittikna! (Too soon?) Furthermore nothing was ever said about a problem with what you listed, were talking about healing herbs in combination with alcohol. And no the "Myriad" of herbs you seem to think are out there for poisons don't work for most poisons given via weapons/spells, there is one in game that is decent yet very hard to find without adapting herbalism.

It's obvious you are either new, not very familiar with the current herb system or how they seem to apply to combat or general situations. Your entire focus seems to be on "Aww fuck now they are going to make it so I can't heal so quick and jump back into combat!/Well thats what this herb list on the website says..."

Kilrayne
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Joined: 10 Feb 2015 17:12

Re: Herbs needs to be looked at

Post by Kilrayne » 17 Apr 2015 02:01

No, what's obvious is that you're missing the point. I'm quite aware of herbs and herblore. I herb and use herbs extensively. What I'm trying to question, through my own admittedly annoying way, is where does this all end? Herbs and consumables in general have a huge influence on the game. They should. Guilds have abilities, for which they spend tax, and consumables provide additional boosts at the cost of time and resources. The abilities and consumables have overlap, as they should. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm unclear as how nerfing alcohol/herb combos is "good for the game", when clearly it would only stand to benefit one or two factions.

Greneth

Re: Herbs needs to be looked at

Post by Greneth » 17 Apr 2015 03:01

Kilrayne wrote:No, what's obvious is that you're missing the point. I'm quite aware of herbs and herblore. I herb and use herbs extensively. What I'm trying to question, through my own admittedly annoying way, is where does this all end? Herbs and consumables in general have a huge influence on the game. They should. Guilds have abilities, for which they spend tax, and consumables provide additional boosts at the cost of time and resources. The abilities and consumables have overlap, as they should. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm unclear as how nerfing alcohol/herb combos is "good for the game", when clearly it would only stand to benefit one or two factions.
Benefits much more then two factions, I see it as good for the game because it makes it more challenging and forces interaction. Want to do a difficult area? Snag a healer, there are healers on both sides. As it stands now two Titans can duo nearly anything they want if you choose the right guilds. Look at all the people scripting, pop some herbs and bot through the "hardest" grinding areas in the game. The purpose of having a heal within guilds is to heal people, when you can find other means which sustain someone to the point where a healer becomes obsolete it doesn't matter if you buff the heal or not because theres no real reason for them.

So why pay taxes on a heal? Why not swap heal out with something more beneficial if it's going to become nearly obsolete? Why not just turn every guild into a fighter guild?

Anyways, agree to disagree. I'd rather have a more challenging game then something I can breeze through and whether you wish to admit it or not Alcohol+Skunks and Whitehorns is a bit ridiculous considering only fighters benefit from it and it's nearly limitless.

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Alorrana
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Re: Herbs needs to be looked at

Post by Alorrana » 17 Apr 2015 07:59

"I see it as good for the game because it makes it more challenging and forces interaction".

Anything forced is usually nothing good.

Why is ist a bad thing to be able to grind and stay healthy. ?

running around on vbs only makes you an easy kill.

What im reading here is.. " Im a healer, I should be the only one that can heal"

no way, am I going to stand around 20 mins to heal after a fight, I like to stay
healthy, and move on swiftly.
I’m not a complete idiot. Some pieces are missing.

Laurel

Re: Herbs needs to be looked at

Post by Laurel » 17 Apr 2015 08:31

What are you people even talking about? In grinding if you drop too much in health and repeatedly need a healer (without thorns and tons of - balanced? - mana herbs OR supreme supreme - aka imbued - mentals), you shouldn't be grinding that place.
So if you can grind a place with healing imbues, skunks, alco and your guild/team setup - grind your ass off. Whitehorns or any other herb won't really make a difference in can / cannot. They will make a difference in the pace and required preparation time (gathering).

If you go for hard short fights with burst heal - healers come handy. Otherwise over long times healers in Genesis:
a. run oom
b. leech exp with little other combat aid
c. stink ;p

Greneth

Re: Herbs needs to be looked at

Post by Greneth » 17 Apr 2015 11:58

Alorrana wrote:"I see it as good for the game because it makes it more challenging and forces interaction".

Anything forced is usually nothing good.

Why is ist a bad thing to be able to grind and stay healthy. ?

running around on vbs only makes you an easy kill.

What im reading here is.. " Im a healer, I should be the only one that can heal"

no way, am I going to stand around 20 mins to heal after a fight, I like to stay
healthy, and move on swiftly.
Eh.. im an Archer. But healers should definitely have more emphasis then getting passed over because herbs are just as good and dont leech xp.

Laurel

Re: Herbs needs to be looked at

Post by Laurel » 17 Apr 2015 12:32

Change exp gain in Gen and you'll see healers come more handy in grinding than steady long term mitigation and healing.

Currently the majority of grind exp is relatively safe-to-combat enemies with steady smaller exp per kill. If you changed that to MMORPG mode - boss fights give real rewards, thrash packs have a random chance of any real reward - you'd end up with short-term healers be in higher demand for real exp gain, than steady dmg mitigation (as it's currently the case).

Maybe that's your solution. Not herbs.

Mortis

Re: Herbs needs to be looked at

Post by Mortis » 18 Apr 2015 15:08

Laurel wrote:Change exp gain in Gen and you'll see healers come more handy in grinding than steady long term mitigation and healing.

Currently the majority of grind exp is relatively safe-to-combat enemies with steady smaller exp per kill. If you changed that to MMORPG mode - boss fights give real rewards, thrash packs have a random chance of any real reward - you'd end up with short-term healers be in higher demand for real exp gain, than steady dmg mitigation (as it's currently the case).

Maybe that's your solution. Not herbs.
Some good suggestions here.

Icarus
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Re: Herbs needs to be looked at

Post by Icarus » 19 Apr 2015 19:36

Laurel wrote:If you go for hard short fights with burst heal - healers come handy. Otherwise over long times healers in Genesis:
a. run oom
Healer runs out of mana -> poorly equipped tank / bad aggro control / too small manapool
Laurel wrote:b. leech exp with little other combat aid
Well, if the tank is a good tank, the healer can actually focus a lot on fighting too, but there is no way to match a calian for a ranger, for example...
Laurel wrote:c. stink ;p
Nah, you left rangers, Laurel.. :D


Now, yes. Herbs need to be looked at. There are herbs that are seriously overpowered in either effect or lastingtime. There have been such herbs for over 20 years. Some have changed over the years (mittikna from light to nightvision and now losing the duration time, as an example). New have come, some have been removed. The whole game itself have seen major changes, where herbs have become a major factor for many.

Alcohol and it's effects, as well as being stuffed, have been like this for eons. It was said, 25 years ago, that alcohol should not have any advers drawbacks on the Donut, and with some few exceptions, that has been kept up. Lets not mess with it now, leave it be, it's survived 25 years, let it survive another 25.

But herbs... Herbs do need a lookthrough, as it did when a rising hero mercenary could hold back a myth vampire. Thanks to herbs...

Was the herbs OP? Did the vampires suck? (Pun intended)

Well, for a burst of 10 minute fighting, the rising hero used herbs he had spent 4-8 hours gathering. And still had to flee in the end. Since this, the herbs were limited to 1 pr 60 sec, but as a result, some herbs were altered into giving a much higher effect. Some skill-systems (sneak and hide) "broke", and kuko became the weapon of choice for many who dislike stealthers. The handling of darkvision was changed, now you either see in the dark or you don't, instead of seeing in a level of darkness. The changes made in the gamelib have eventually made some herbs useless and some herbs overpowered, and the result is, we NEED to have them looked at. 10 minutes on Holm was never intended to give a player 5 hours of darkvision. 10 minutes in Calia was never intended to allow a player to run around with sup-guru awareness for 45 minutes.

Oh, you've grown used to having this ability?
You want to be able to see in the dark, but not pay tax to have a spell for it?
You like to run around with sup guru awareness, but still not interrested in the taxes?

Go grind imbues. Herbs aren't supposed to replace guild powers or duplicate them for free. If so, lets have the +weapon skill herbs, +defence/parry herbs, combat-special herbs etc.
Flee you fools!

Laurel

Re: Herbs needs to be looked at

Post by Laurel » 19 Apr 2015 20:12

Icarus wrote:
Laurel wrote:If you go for hard short fights with burst heal - healers come handy. Otherwise over long times healers in Genesis:
a. run oom
Healer runs out of mana -> poorly equipped tank / bad aggro control / too small manapool
Laurel wrote:b. leech exp with little other combat aid
Well, if the tank is a good tank, the healer can actually focus a lot on fighting too, but there is no way to match a calian for a ranger, for example...
Laurel wrote:c. stink ;p
Nah, you left rangers, Laurel.. :D
a. true, exactly my point
b. exactly my point
c. true

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