How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race mods)

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Draugor
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Re: How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race m

Post by Draugor » 28 Feb 2017 17:08

Cherek wrote:
Amberlee wrote:Been saying racial modifiers need to change in genesis.
They don't belong in the game as they currently are.
However when the admin is too afraid of change..
Well then nothing happens :)
So the reason stat modifiers are what they are is because we are "too afraid" to change them? Well that's news to me! Which one of the admin members told you that?:)

Would be fun to know the actual reason tho, that the racial stats are screwy is nothing new after all

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Cherek
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Re: How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race m

Post by Cherek » 28 Feb 2017 17:25

Well, the reason is the same as with everything else. For any type of project someone has to feel inspired and motivated, and push the project, present a well-thought out solution that convinces the admin, or other admin, it's a good idea, and then make it happen. In this case Mercade, Cotillion and Gorboth probably are the key people to either lead the project, or the ones that need to be convinced by whoever wants to make it happen.

I've only ever heard one wizard say they want to work to change the racial balance and also presented an idea how to change, but so far not much more has happened as the wizard has been focused on other projects.

So, yeah, that's where we are at that.

Personally I got enough just to keep up with our much larger number of wizards and their projects. I can't speak for Cotillion, but we can safely say that he also has a lot to do thanks to our increased number of wizards. Gorboth is, and as most of you know, quite busy iRL and is not near his peak activity levels right now. Mercade has talked about adjusting racial modifiers in the past, but has not had much time lately either, and again, the number of new players and wizards are putting more pressure on us in the admin overall to simply keep up with the limited time we have.

And finally, the new magic system is changing the racial balance as well, so if we were to change racial modifiers today, it would be a different change than if we had done it a few years ago. So, IF they should change whatever change needs to be a seriously thought out one, taking everything into consideration.

So there you go. The real reason. Definitely nothing about "being afraid" or such nonsense.

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Re: How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race m

Post by Draugor » 28 Feb 2017 17:58

Cherek wrote:Well, the reason is the same as with everything else. For any type of project someone has to feel inspired and motivated, and push the project, present a well-thought out solution that convinces the admin, or other admin, it's a good idea, and then make it happen. In this case Mercade, Cotillion and Gorboth probably are the key people to either lead the project, or the ones that need to be convinced by whoever wants to make it happen.

I've only ever heard one wizard say they want to work to change the racial balance and also presented an idea how to change, but so far not much more has happened as the wizard has been focused on other projects.

So, yeah, that's where we are at that.

Personally I got enough just to keep up with our much larger number of wizards and their projects. I can't speak for Cotillion, but we can safely say that he also has a lot to do thanks to our increased number of wizards. Gorboth is, and as most of you know, quite busy iRL and is not near his peak activity levels right now. Mercade has talked about adjusting racial modifiers in the past, but has not had much time lately either, and again, the number of new players and wizards are putting more pressure on us in the admin overall to simply keep up with the limited time we have.

And finally, the new magic system is changing the racial balance as well, so if we were to change racial modifiers today, it would be a different change than if we had done it a few years ago. So, IF they should change whatever change needs to be a seriously thought out one, taking everything into consideration.

So there you go. The real reason. Definitely nothing about "being afraid" or such nonsense.
I aint the one that brought up the afraid thing. I just wanted to know why, you could have said something like "We dont really have the manpower for a project of that size right now" years ago and been done with it :P

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Cherek
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Re: How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race m

Post by Cherek » 28 Feb 2017 18:18

The afraid thing wasn't directed at you Draugor:)

It's not really about manpower. It's the nature of the volunteer-based system Genesis is. I used be on "your" side, and couldn't understand why in my eyes "obvious" problems were never fixed, etc. Now when I've been admin for a while I've understood how things work.

For anything to happen someone, anyone, needs to really PUSH the project, and it takes time, energy and motivation to make anything happen. Even small things. And any work will usually happen in "streaks" since nobody can be wizards on Genesis full time, every week, every month. For example right now Arman is in a good flow, pushing through things he feels are important, and things he wants to work on. And any project relies on someone with that kind of drive to make it happen. And when someone has that drive, the best we in the admin can do is try to be supportive and helpful so the wizard(s) who currently have energy and motivation get whatever approvals / feedback they need.

Most wizards come and go, and find motivation now and then, sometimes a lot at the same time, sometimes very slowly. A project can start, be paused for half a year, continue, then pause, and so on, for years. And that's natural.

Now, we admins on the other hand can't work that way and just be "gone" for three months when we feel like it. We need to be around, preferably daily, but at the very least weekly, year after year in order to manage things. When I first became admin I was full of motivation and energy and was totally frustrated how "laid back" the other admin seemed to be. I get it now though. It's impossible to be full of motivation and energy 365 days / year. In order to not burn out (which I almost did) we admins simply have to spend limited amount of time consistently instead of doing regular wizard "bursts", or we would have to switch admins all the time when we lose energy. Which means, for most of the year most admins are in maintenance mode, just keeping things running, which in my case means trying to be available for other wizards when I am needed to review and approve things. Now and then even admins get a burst of motivation though, and then things suddenly can happen, and that's usually when we get global changes, or events, and similar. Or of course when a regular wizards pushes big projects through. Most regular wizards don't have the experience or skill for global game changing things though, especially not now when the majority of wizards are very new.

All this means is that it's never a guarantee anything will ever be done. Even things that everyone knows would be good. There are TONS of things that would be awesome for the game. A lot of things both players and wizards agree on. But to agree something would be a good idea is about 1% of the work...

Hope this helps explain how things work up in the wizard and admin world. Most of you know I was for a long time a player who, just like many of you, cried for change on the forums, so hopefully you'll take my word when I am explaining why things not always change quickly, or at all. And the bigger the change, the harder it usually is of course.

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Melarec
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Re: How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race m

Post by Melarec » 28 Feb 2017 20:26

How exactly are the racial modifiers laid out right now?
I have an idea, but would need to see the current system first.
A table or list would be nice.

And I doubt the current system is anything like, "Halflings get a bonus d10 on agility checks."
(Which is how an old GM of mine did racial modifiers..)

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Cherek
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Re: How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race m

Post by Cherek » 01 Mar 2017 00:30

Melarec wrote:How exactly are the racial modifiers laid out right now?
I have an idea, but would need to see the current system first.
A table or list would be nice.

And I doubt the current system is anything like, "Halflings get a bonus d10 on agility checks."
(Which is how an old GM of mine did racial modifiers..)
Well, as you know we can't give out numbers or in public explain exactly how it works. But it's pretty simple really, and this information can be found in <help races> too. Humans increase all their stats at the same pace. The other races have some stats that increase quicker than the human "baseline", and others that increase slower. The differences can be quite significant, where for example hobbits gain DEX at a very high rate, but STR at a very slow rate for example. That's all there is to it really.

Obviously the idea is that while humans are average in every stat, the others have pros and cons that should in theory balance each other out. Of course, the racial modifiers were set ages ago, and the world has changed a lot since then. Many of us older players remember a time where hobbits used to be extremely good fighters, since the fighting system back then relied mostly on DEX. The combat system was changed to make all combat stats count, which kind of made goblins the kings of fighting. And now the new magic system is changing things again, and elves and gnomes have suddenly become more powerful.

So... it's complex, and more things than just the modifiers affect racial balance too. For example the number of guild options each race has and/or how many areas and quests their race can access. Humans are clearly the best race if you want many guild options and be able to enter every area and do every quest. (without race-changes along the way), while goblins are probably the worst choice from that perspective.

The most fair solution would of course be to make all races exactly the same stat-wise, let all races join all guilds, and let all races access all areas and do all quests, and let difference be simply cosmetic. It might also be quite... boring? And Genesis has always been more about unique and quirky than logical and 100% fair. For good and for worse.:)

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Re: How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race m

Post by Amberlee » 01 Mar 2017 03:27

The problem is.
The modifiers for other races does not equal the total modifiers of humans.
In fact, they are vastly better in some cases.
And then there are the situation with the HUGE differences in the stat modifiers.
Even though I benefit from them myself as a caster now, there is no reason to have them.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Cherek
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Re: How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race m

Post by Cherek » 01 Mar 2017 11:47

Amberlee wrote:The problem is.
The modifiers for other races does not equal the total modifiers of humans.
In fact, they are vastly better in some cases.
And then there are the situation with the HUGE differences in the stat modifiers.
Even though I benefit from them myself as a caster now, there is no reason to have them.
I dont disagree, I too think there are things about the current modifiers that aren't optimal. But as always there's multiple solutions and ideas about what's the best way to tackle race differences, and in any case someone has to design and idea, test it and push it through as explained above. So, that's basically where we're at on that, and well, all other potential projects too.

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Re: How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race m

Post by Amberlee » 01 Mar 2017 17:52

Cherek wrote:
Amberlee wrote:The problem is.
The modifiers for other races does not equal the total modifiers of humans.
In fact, they are vastly better in some cases.
And then there are the situation with the HUGE differences in the stat modifiers.
Even though I benefit from them myself as a caster now, there is no reason to have them.
I dont disagree, I too think there are things about the current modifiers that aren't optimal. But as always there's multiple solutions and ideas about what's the best way to tackle race differences, and in any case someone has to design and idea, test it and push it through as explained above. So, that's basically where we're at on that, and well, all other potential projects too.

Good that you don't disagree.
If you want I could give you a list to prioritize.
Truthfully.
Racial modifiers are at the very top of that list.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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Re: How to solve Genesis' (apparently) biggest issue (race m

Post by Cerin » 02 Mar 2017 05:27

Cherek wrote: The most fair solution would of course be to make all races exactly the same stat-wise, let all races join all guilds, and let all races access all areas and do all quests, and let difference be simply cosmetic. It might also be quite... boring? And Genesis has always been more about unique and quirky than logical and 100% fair. For good and for worse.:)
Well no one said anything about the rest of that, but making them all the same stat wise while allowing the player to choose what they want to raise does seem pretty fair for a game that promotes competition and has a FFA PvP.

Right now its kind of like saying you're going to put on this big 100 meter dash event for everyone to enjoy and have fun with, but people unfortunately are going to get shot in a random body part. But its not that random, Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits and Gnomes are going to get shot in parts that will harm them the most from decent to worse in that order. Goblins get a 75 meter head start and humans a 50. But have fun in the competition the rest of you and good luck!

I have no idea how to code, so maybe it is some elaborate ordeal. Seems to me like there has got to be some kind of master file though which wouldn't take someone that long to change. Worst thing thats going to happen is a few goblins get weaker, humans dont even realize a change happened and everyone else gets to come out of hiding.

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