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Death is Broken

Posted: 21 Mar 2017 13:24
by glantri
A new blog on the shadow genesis site about death (and how it's broken).

Re: Death is Broken

Posted: 22 Mar 2017 05:48
by Amberlee
One thing the writer of this.. Whine.. forgets to mention.
Is that at the size of myth++ it's impossible to gain ranks, so dying down like that is actually the only way to gain ranks.
Sure it can and probably is abused to an extent, but it is open and just as viable for everyone.

So instead of slaving for the better part of a YEAR(yes think about that.. over a year..) to regain size and reset stats when you switch from a melee to a caster guild, you instead spend weeks, perhaps a month or two to regain your size.
Oh and for those who think this is an easy feat.. This means 12+ hour grind days for that time.
Incorporate work and a social life and yeah.. it will take longer.

People seem to forget though, that the ones who are that big have done the leg work.
We actually busted our asses off grinding to the sizes we do have.
And some of us have 20+ years in the game doing that.

However distasteful I find Morrison, he earned his size by hard work.. And that I can respect.

I find this rant you dug up here to quite frankly ooze of envy, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Sparkle Church humpers that whine about not getting big and doesn't want to put in the work actually wrote this.

Re: Death is Broken

Posted: 22 Mar 2017 14:06
by Ardor
Agree with Amberlee on that.. however I feel about any particular player as a person, I still respect the fact that they get to their sizes through hours and hours of just grinding day in and day out for years.. it is called dedication

Whiners on the other hand.. those who are too lazy to do the hard work and whining about others who do gain no respect for me in the matter. They mostly just want rules that gain the lazies

Re: Death is Broken

Posted: 22 Mar 2017 15:52
by glantri
Foreword added for myths who feel like the article threatens how bigly they are.

Re: Death is Broken

Posted: 22 Mar 2017 16:50
by Cherek
That "suicide system" we currently have definitely isn't optimal, and thematically it's of course totally silly. If I remember correctly though, the death punishment was lowered, several times, partly because a large majority of us players asked for it. At the time I don't think anyone anticipated how extensively it would be used as a means to rework your stats and gain lots of guild-XP.

I think the same can be said for quest XP. As the blog-writer states, doing all the quests used to mean a big chunk of your total XP, and not just be an insignificant part. I'd say Genesis today works like it was once designed at levels up to expert or so. And the quest system works quite well at those levels I think. You can even chose NOT to quest much at all and still become expert. Of course you'll risk more in doing so, as you'll lose more when you die compared to someone who is veteran on quest XP only. And that's a reasonable system where quest XP works as both a boost in growing, and as an insurance, but not something you MUST have. Genesis was originally designed with what today is around expert as the highest mortal level too, so it makes sense that the balance between death and combat XP works well at those levels. And death without recovery would probably function quite well at those levels too.

Then of course, as we all know, players kept growing, and new mortal titles were added to measure players new sizes, and then new high-XP grinding areas were created to keep up with the growing players needs. And so on. Also, instead of playing a few hours a day when you could get hold of a computer in the computer lab, or while you could afford being connected with your modem, cheap broadband internet made it possible for players to stay connected 24/7. Thus, we entered the modern Genesis where many players play up to 16 hours / day, often running Genesis in the background while doing something else, letting their advanced scripts grow their character for them. And finally, the Genesis players are extremely loyal, which is great, but also part of the problem as you can grow REALLY huge in 10+ years of playing. Even if you "only" play a few hours a day, or don't use scripts. And voila, here we are, with players that have outgrown large parts of the game, and the original design.

As I usually say in most "problem topics", that I think a lot of our current issues come from the fact that the players have outgrown Genesis, and how it was designed, and that causes a number of issues in all sorts of areas, including the death system, the quest XP system and PVP. This is of course not the fault of the big players. Nor is it the fault of the wizards. Genesis evolves and grows, and a decision that seems perfectly logical made by someone in 1998 might end up a broken system in 2017. I think in a volunteer-player-run game like this, that's almost impossible to avoid. And here we are, with a quirky mix of everything. Some things work really well, other things used to work really good but time has taken its toll and now some things are not functioning as well anymore.

And now someone has to step up and fix it, and then in 2028 the fix that worked so well now will be a broken system that needs fixing.:)

Re: Death is Broken

Posted: 22 Mar 2017 17:28
by glantri
It is a mischaracterization to chalk this one up to size. Size makes the abuse easier, but anyone can abuse today's recovery.

The easy example to see is the big well-known myths dying to expert to abuse recovery. We all see that, and so those make real world examples to discuss. However, even an expert can abuse recovery to earn guild xp at 20x speed. It is going on right now. It's just harder to notice.

A myth can die to expert and rocket through a guild's title system in a day. That's not intended play. A guild is meant to be a journey over time, not a bling in a day. Similarly an expert can die down one level, earn guild xp at 20x to recovery, then kill himself again and again each time to max out his guild. This is not a problem of size despite the mechanics that make it easier for myths to do everything.

This is a problem of the mechanic of death allowing you to earn xp at 20x normal speed. What twisted mechanic is this? When a game's death system lets you play part of the game better by dying, that's broken.

Size is not an excuse to dismiss this problem.

Re: Death is Broken

Posted: 22 Mar 2017 20:13
by Cherek
Glantri: Sorry if I was unclear. My point was that the OLD death system worked quite well as long as we were small, and in theory we might not need a recovery XP-boost system if expert was still "big". Had we remained smaller, the game as it was designed with the old death might still work fine. Now, capping everyone at old Champion would of course have come with a lot of issues too, and was probably never even discussed at the time. I am just saying that many of issues we have now probably come from old designs that were created for much smaller players.

When our QXP became insignificant, and a third of our combat XP became A LOT, the large majority cried for another less harsh death system, and as I remember the recovery system was celebrated when it arrived. So no, doing something about our size differences won't fix any recovery system issues. My point was simply that the massive and almost unlimited growth of characters prompted for the recovery system change to begin with.

I was not suggesting a solution, or saying the wrong decisions were made, just some random thoughts about how the game has evolved and the effects.

Re: Death is Broken

Posted: 22 Mar 2017 20:18
by morgzaash
Well, try to gain guild xp for necromancers at my size : to max titles you need about 120 fantastic progresses.
If I play a lot focusing only on gaining XP and forgeting that I need a team, armours, smith etc it will took about 10h to made half a fantastic.
So 2 days to make 1 . That will took 240 days of 10h daily hardcore gaming to made that.
Death is not broken, however making guild XP may be fixed a bit but , again, it need a willing wizard, free time, knowledge ....
And we all know that's a free, players-for-players game.
If any wiz is reading this and currently making a guild please consider changeing guild-xp gaining change.

For example : fighters guild
1. Train special attack up to skill of 10
2. 10 hits with special attack in fight allows to train up to next level
3-X repeat untill sup guru with higher noumber of hits each level
4. titles / any specials from guild and other stuff : depends on started and finished special attacks

Such system could make whole thing more equal for everyone regrading brut level , being on back and not "fireing" specs
will not "rise" the level. Begginer and huge myth got a same chance just visiting normal for its size places where he/she kills
and not worring anymore .
Simple ? hope so, and from my perspective most equal for everyone for making "guild-xp".

Re: Death is Broken

Posted: 23 Mar 2017 15:42
by nils
Fantastic progresses - you're doing it wrong.