Libraries - (semi)Unified System

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Drazson
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Libraries - (semi)Unified System

Post by Drazson » 20 Jan 2021 20:27

Greetings,

The are a LOT of libraries in the realms and I have found various ones working in quite different ways. Libraries where you <catalog>, where you <index> or even <browse shelves>. I have seen libraries with book IDs, ones without, libraries where you borrow books and ones where you don't.

Can this somehow be a bit more consistent? At the very least, I think it's a good librarian's job to tag the books so that we don't have to <borrow book with a big title - wait is it caps-sensitive> so is there a chance this can be changed? Maybe it's a big hassle but at least for the future?

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Cherek
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Re: Libraries - (semi)Unified System

Post by Cherek » 21 Jan 2021 13:44

Drazson wrote:
20 Jan 2021 20:27
Greetings,

The are a LOT of libraries in the realms and I have found various ones working in quite different ways. Libraries where you <catalog>, where you <index> or even <browse shelves>. I have seen libraries with book IDs, ones without, libraries where you borrow books and ones where you don't.

Can this somehow be a bit more consistent? At the very least, I think it's a good librarian's job to tag the books so that we don't have to <borrow book with a big title - wait is it caps-sensitive> so is there a chance this can be changed? Maybe it's a big hassle but at least for the future?
Just like with everything else, different wizard coded similar things in slightly different ways. I think things like that is part of the charm with Genesis to be honest.

And it works like that in real life too! An American, Swedish, and Italian libarary will likely work slightly differently, and a visitor from another country will have to adapt :)

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Re: Libraries - (semi)Unified System

Post by Drazson » 21 Jan 2021 13:56

I narrowed it down a lot in hopes that I wouldn't get that answer but eh! At least I tried :D

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Cherek
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Re: Libraries - (semi)Unified System

Post by Cherek » 21 Jan 2021 17:41

Drazson wrote:
21 Jan 2021 13:56
I narrowed it down a lot in hopes that I wouldn't get that answer but eh! At least I tried :D
Can't blame you for trying! I get your point completely, I just personally kinda like that things work a little different in different places. I think it makes the world feel a bit more... varied.

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Re: Libraries - (semi)Unified System

Post by Makfly » 21 Jan 2021 22:15

Cherek wrote:
21 Jan 2021 17:41
Drazson wrote:
21 Jan 2021 13:56
I narrowed it down a lot in hopes that I wouldn't get that answer but eh! At least I tried :D
Can't blame you for trying! I get your point completely, I just personally kinda like that things work a little different in different places. I think it makes the world feel a bit more... varied.
Honestly your response is, I think, not well thought out, or perhaps you are simply speaking from a lack of experience as a player.
Because that "variation" you mention, provides absolutely no player (/game) positive experience. There is no benefit, or good gaming experience, with being in a guild with a crappy library, compared to guilds that have a better with options to cataloging and access controls etc that should be standard.

So please review the issue again, and remember that Genesis is a game, that should (hopefully) provide a great gaming experience, and in turn improve the issues that leads to the opposite - Within the conditions of limited coding resources etc, of course.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

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Cherek
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Re: Libraries - (semi)Unified System

Post by Cherek » 21 Jan 2021 23:23

Makfly: Ouch. No, I don't lack experiance as a player. I honestly would have hoped that based on what I have written on forums and elsewhere during the last decade, it would be relatively clear that I DO know how it is to play Genesis. I played quite actively all the way until I became Keeper some 10 months ago. After that, I've played a lot less, for obvious reasons. I know perfectly well how libraries work, and that some are easier and quicker to use than others.

No, I don't think we necessarily need a standardized system for libraries, so they all look and work exactly the same, regardless of where they are located and how they were originally coded. I think it's perfectly fine that one wizard coded a library one way, and another wizard coded it in a different way. For me that IS part of the cham with Genesis, and I saw that as a player. It's okay that you don't agree, but to suggest that I don't know how it is to play Genesis... Bah. And for the record, I never really liked when shiplines became standardized either, I think we lost some flavour and variation there, even if it probably is a lot better technically. That said, standardized code can of course be great, but I also think there is value in individual wizards visions and the way they coded things. Including some of the quirky parts.

Now, I of course agree that libraries should not be frustrating and just plain bad, and I am all for fixing syntax issues and illogical annoying problems. If you, or Drazson have an issue with a particular library, I think it's better to explain the issue with that particular library, and ask the liege of the domain (if there is one), or the AoP team, to have a look at it, and see if whatever it is that is frustrating can be fixed.

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Re: Libraries - (semi)Unified System

Post by Drazson » 22 Jan 2021 13:15

Your kingdom, your rules. At least take a look at MT library which has you type things like 'kings_of_arnor' :?

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Re: Libraries - (semi)Unified System

Post by Cherek » 22 Jan 2021 13:38

Drazson wrote:
22 Jan 2021 13:15
Your kingdom, your rules. At least take a look at MT library which has you type things like 'kings_of_arnor' :?
Luckily Gondor has a liege, so if you send a mail to Varian, maybe he will take a look. (I am not sure he checks the forums that often).

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Re: Libraries - (semi)Unified System

Post by Makfly » 22 Jan 2021 21:01

Cherek wrote:
21 Jan 2021 23:23
Makfly: Ouch. No, I don't lack experiance as a player. I honestly would have hoped that based on what I have written on forums and elsewhere during the last decade, it would be relatively clear that I DO know how it is to play Genesis. I played quite actively all the way until I became Keeper some 10 months ago. After that, I've played a lot less, for obvious reasons. I know perfectly well how libraries work, and that some are easier and quicker to use than others.

No, I don't think we necessarily need a standardized system for libraries, so they all look and work exactly the same, regardless of where they are located and how they were originally coded. I think it's perfectly fine that one wizard coded a library one way, and another wizard coded it in a different way. For me that IS part of the cham with Genesis, and I saw that as a player. It's okay that you don't agree, but to suggest that I don't know how it is to play Genesis... Bah. And for the record, I never really liked when shiplines became standardized either, I think we lost some flavour and variation there, even if it probably is a lot better technically. That said, standardized code can of course be great, but I also think there is value in individual wizards visions and the way they coded things. Including some of the quirky parts.

Now, I of course agree that libraries should not be frustrating and just plain bad, and I am all for fixing syntax issues and illogical annoying problems. If you, or Drazson have an issue with a particular library, I think it's better to explain the issue with that particular library, and ask the liege of the domain (if there is one), or the AoP team, to have a look at it, and see if whatever it is that is frustrating can be fixed.
I know you played Genesis, I have played with/against you in game. I meant, of course, particular experience with the library functions across guilds, and the issues mentioned in the posts above.

I get players can contact Lieges, but I don't understand why having a standard template library with all basic functionalities, that can be pulled and reskinned, is not just an obvious thing.

I also do not get what the benefits this "variation" you are talking about in relating to this particular issue, provides for the game.
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Cherek
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Re: Libraries - (semi)Unified System

Post by Cherek » 22 Jan 2021 22:06

Makfly wrote:
22 Jan 2021 21:01
I know you played Genesis, I have played with/against you in game. I meant, of course, particular experience with the library functions across guilds, and the issues mentioned in the posts above.

I get players can contact Lieges, but I don't understand why having a standard template library with all basic functionalities, that can be pulled and reskinned, is not just an obvious thing.

I also do not get what the benefits this "variation" you are talking about in relating to this particular issue, provides for the game.
Why there is no standard template library that can be pulled and reskinned? Well, because nobody has made one? Or maybe someone has, but only newer libraries use it, and not the ones created in the 90s? I don't know. We have a lot of different libraries... it would be a massive job to go through them all and "standardise" them. Could it be done? Maybe, but is it worth the effort, and will it even make the game better? I think it would be better to invididually fix the worst offenders when it comes to syntaxes, but let them keep their uniqueness.

My whole point was that I think these variances, while quirky, is also part of what Genesis is. If we were a commercial game company, we would likely have standard templates for all sorts of things, and a coherent theme and feel for the entire game. But we don't, and I personally also think that IS part of the charm as well. It's the same with all our different kind of shops, inns, pubs, and other establishments. Sometimes you buy stuff, sometimes you order it, sometimes you read a menu, sometimes a pricelist, sometimes reading is forbidden so you have to examine pictures, and sometimes it works in some completley different way that requires a whole help file to explain (Hello Bubba). I like that. Another example is guild racks, as different guilds have different ways of sorting their items, some better than others. It's the same with libraries. Some index stuff differently than others, some lets you read things without first "borrowing" a book, some let's you select a book based on a number, others require the full title to be entered, etc. I can't help it, but I think it's perfectly fine that it works in different ways in different places. Some libraries are just better than others. I mean, the great library of some famous city would likely have a much better system than a pile of scrolls in a barbarian guild...

I totally understand what you mean, though, and I understand why you feel that way, but I just don't agree :)

But like I said, if the syntaxes are just plain bad and confusing, we should try to fix them, but I don't see the need to standardise every library so it works in exactly the same way everywhere. I think the more we standardise stuff, the more we also lose some of the uniqueness of different places.

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