Titles and Growth

Discuss ideas for how to make the game better. Wizards, take note!
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Windemere
Expert
Posts: 286
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 05:37
Location: Winterpeg

Titles and Growth

Post by Windemere » 06 Mar 2010 22:38

I know this is a heated issue, always, but I think it is a serious one as well.

With the amount of size within Genesis, the race to Myth, the need to be bigger we forget about the need for roleplay. Far too often there is a focus on killing, xping, equipping, etc...with little to no focus on what this game is actually meant to foster...roleplay.

Back in the day when I began Windemere I was terrified of the General of the BDA because I wanted to join and I had to roleplay. I didn't know how to roleplay at the time and I made mistakes and they were costly. I also didn't know how to play Genesis, and so I was consistently small with a violent brute.

Now I have learned how to roleplay and it has served me well, but I run into far too many people who are not willing to do so. Alorrana mentioned on the unofficial board that a Myth would not take orders from the BDA General if they were smaller...so what is the suggestion?

Figure out a way to make size less important. I liked the days when it capped at Champion. Is there a really good reason why we switched to this new way other than so people could see how big they have become? Personally I feel that it is pointless to race to Myth and forget everything else. It makes the game boring when you login and grind, and grind, etc... because there is no one to talk to.

I don't know what to suggest, really, all I know is that the focus of Genesis on the mortal level is far to often towards size. This is why people whine when they get killed, or can't beat something. "I'm a Myth, I should be able to kill X".

What do others think?

Windy

Maizara

Re: Titles and Growth

Post by Maizara » 07 Mar 2010 01:29

The problem stems at, how to get people to want to roleplay more? Because you cant force people to do things they dont want to and everyone has the opportunity to roleplay but they choose not to. I think that size does take away from that and people do nothing but want to get bigger, myself included because were useless small. I hear of the old days and all the stories of rival guilds killing eachother and the great times people had. So how to bring that back?

Personally I would like to see all mortal titles that everyone can see capped at Champion but your stats continue to grow just like they can to Myth, because I dont like the idea of a cap if someone wants to be the biggest player in the game and has spent 10 years doing it they deserve those stats. And it can still be there for those people who do enjoy grinding and getting bigger.

Then to create conflict and more roleplaying situations between rival guilds drop the death loss from PvP deaths or at least reduce it significantly. This will get people not so afraid of each other and hopefully create some more of the old stories. Plus it will make it so people dont have to be so worried about leveling and can focus on that roleplaying aspect if they choose.

And the loss of roleplay is more then just because of levels it has alot to do with the guilds themselves.

And alot of roleplaying characters are ruined because with what they see themselves playing as they dont even get a chance to try out. Knights, PoT, DA's now and then, Rangers, Calians. These councils that were set up for way back when are killing the game now. Much like Eagledraco, great roleplayer but in my opinion a horrible leader who hangs onto the title rather then passing it on so that the guild can flourish. The Calian council? Gone and had to be redone because no one was ever awake to promote people into the guild. DA's it depends on when you join as it goes back and forth on whether or not you can get someone to promote you through the levels and leaves little chance to even roleplay as a soldier. PoT from personal experience is sitting around in the guild home which you were told not to leave only able to clean up and collect things for more then a week. Rangers hoping to get one on to begin the process, then wait again for the tasks and wait some more to hope that someone can start a vote and get you in before the time limit is up and you have to start all over.

The worshippers took me about a month to join but people such as Gub, Hektor and a few others were always on and I was able to interact with them in some way. So even though it took a while it was a fun process.

And because of those core guilds people are left to join free to join guilds with no councils which to no surprise consist of the majority of the population in game or the core guilds that do have active councils in which there is someone playing or is getting passed down are still getting members and have active players.

So if people want more chances for roleplay then there needs to be more choices other then roleplaying a Merc, Glad or Ogre.

Rhynox
Titan
Posts: 493
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 03:48
Location: Departed from here. Meet at Genesis!

Re: Titles and Growth

Post by Rhynox » 07 Mar 2010 05:32

Windemere wrote:Now I have learned how to roleplay and it has served me well, but I run into far too many people who are not willing to do so. Alorrana mentioned on the unofficial board that a Myth would not take orders from the BDA General if they were smaller...
When Purple returned from his hiatus, I offered to meet with him and explain the changes that happened while he was away, places where he could grind and obtain money, political situation (alliances, wars, etc), guilds and their characteristics and some equipment to start. He accepted, and we met in the Sparkle common room. While we were talking, he received a message from the RDA general...

Code: Select all

[Purple] murmurs: RDA leader wants me to go on an equipment run right now
> nod
You nod solemnly.
[Purple] smirks.
[Purple] murmurs: not going to
You chuckle politely.
> who
There are 24 players in the game, of which 5 fit your selection.
Irk            Purple         \/\/\/\/
Nikiel         Rhynox+        Tapakah

Players in the realms who are not known to you:
Anshar         Draugor+       Hektor*        Mersereau+     Zar+
Balhut         Erling*        Isgrimnur      Tassle         
Barak*         Fairlight      Lazeus*        Trutblemma+    

> [Purple] murmurs: he didnt even exist when i joined the RDA
[Purple] murmurs: I consider myself exempt
grin dwarv
You grin dwarvishly.
... ^_^

I have always stated that the worst leaders are the myths, because they wage wars and attack others without caring, as their size allows them to survive most battles. They are also the ones that usually don't adventure (if you are already myth, why to risk dying?). The smaller ones are the best leaders since they see everything from another point of view as well. However, even well known leaders can have issues within the guild if they don't come often (Armitace, Eagledraco, etc).
Windemere wrote:I liked the days when it capped at Champion. Is there a really good reason why we switched to this new way other than so people could see how big they have become?
Agreed, I have always been against the new titles. When they appeared I was an expert, so I grew all my way back from there. However, the reason was sound: there used to be a rule where one could not attack someone two or more levels below than one unless he could justify it. However, the champion level was not capped, so there were small champions (like Rhynox), medium champions and huge champions. A small champion could not assist against a huge champion, and he would be able to kill him in just a couple of hits. The new titles were a necessary update to fix that problem, but brought another: RPG miss. Since almost everyone was champion (small or huge) you would no longer need to grind, and could spend your time chatting or roleplaying. When the new titles appeared, a new race for the biggest title surged, a race that is still going on nowadays. I believe (as we say here, "with Monday's newspaper", so this opinion is biased) that the right approach would have been to add only a couple of titles, wait until all champions that were below the title reached it, and then move it upwards, maybe one title per year. This would have made people grind for a couple of months to reach the next biggest title, but then continue to do what they used to do. Throwing the new titles the way it was done made some people realize the huge difference between the biggest characters and the like with everyone else.

An extra problem was that the biggest title was too high, it was created on purpose so that even the biggest players in Genesis were below it. The first four to reach myth were Kithkanan, Kuti, Dionysos and Xar. I don't remember how big was everyone else, but I remember the biggest neidar was Blizzard. Unfortunately, when upping the goal so high discouraged many that were happily at the top, many who have spent years to reach it would need to spend again as many years to reach the new biggest titles.
Maizara wrote:Personally I would like to see all mortal titles that everyone can see capped at Champion but your stats continue to grow just like they can to Myth, because I dont like the idea of a cap if someone wants to be the biggest player in the game and has spent 10 years doing it they deserve those stats.
However, the truth is that you can't roll back the changes. We already know who is bigger than who for sure, and that will prevent people from being bold again (for example, even if an expert and a champion were again both champion, the expert would know that one is in fact a champion and would never dare to attack him as he may have done in the past).

We agree that someone who has the will to grind for ten hours per day and has been doing that for years non-stop deserves to be considerably bigger than someone who can seldom be around.
Windemere wrote:It makes the game boring when you login and grind, and grind, etc... because there is no one to talk to.
Again, I always say that the game will be fun again once everyone hits myth. That won't happen anytime soon, though.
Windemere wrote:This is why people whine when they get killed, or can't beat something. "I'm a Myth, I should be able to kill X".
That is not really true, though. We all know that skills are what count. When people complain, they don't compare their size versus their opponent's size, but instead their skills versus their opponent' skills. No matter your size, there will always be something you cannot do (at least, alone).

What could be done? Well, capping growth would not work, the either you need to put the cap higher than the biggest mortal (who is quite a bit ahead of every other mortal in Genesis), or put the cap at a much lower average (in which case you are punishing the people who are above the cap, preventing them from growing for several years until the average hits the cap). I already suggested that we need to push those small (but willing to grow) faster, so that they reach their goal faster and can stop thinking about growing. My suggestion was to create an average of every mortal character that is currently logged in, and then make the characters with an average below it to get bonus experience. People in the average or above it would get no bonus at all, but they would never notice any difference as how it is now. However, if there are five myths and one novice in Genesis playing, the population average size would be titan/champion ([1 + 16*5] / 6 = 13.5), and therefore anyone below it would get a bonus (directly proportional to the difference between the character's mortal size and the average). I don't mind a newbie reaching myth in a couple of months when it took me years.
Maizara wrote:Then to create conflict and more roleplaying situations between rival guilds drop the death loss from PvP deaths or at least reduce it significantly.
The new death system is better than the old one. It allows people to grow back to their size much faster than before (I was told some can restore a death from around myth size in a week). While it is not true in all cases (it took me a good month to do that), and certain guilds are handicapped (a calian who has died won't be able to grow back alone, for example), the system is better than the old one.
Maizara wrote:So if people want more chances for roleplay then there needs to be more choices other then roleplaying a Merc, Glad or Ogre.
What you say about councils is true, sadly. And it is also true that there are very few opportunities for roleplaying. But remember what you said at the beginning: you can't force someone to roleplay. And unfortunately, most of the people who are around don't have the time or the will to roleplay. You need more roleplayers, but they aren't that easy to find!

I remember a newbie who tried the game and managed to reach Sparkle after finishing the tutorial. His parting words were something like "I just killed a huge vampire and now I must kill rats and beg for money to anyone I cross around". The "real world" (outside the Tutorial) is too tough. If you ask me, all the mortal levels below expert are trash and should be scrapped. Anyone finishing the tutorial should "graduate" at expert, which would allow them to, at least, carry more loot to sell instead of the knives and clothes from the orcs in Sparkle without getting tired.

Bromen
Champion
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Re: Titles and Growth

Post by Bromen » 07 Mar 2010 08:27

I remember hitting champ and feeling on top of the world. I knew people like Monika, Garnet, Xar etc. would always be bigger, but I felt part of a significant group of people. I compare the two like the forgone lvl 60 cap in WoW. Once everyone reached it, you could still do whatever you wanted, but the real fun existed in teams and pvp combat.

I know it would be a far cry to ask for a cap to exp, but wouldn't it add to the spice of the game? knowing you could die and it'll take a week or two to grow back, or trying various new adventures in the game because you know it won't take long to recover. The aspect of teaming has been lost a little bit in our realms. I think it needs to be encouraged much more than it has been. I think to encourage roleplay, the powers that be must have an active role in making the themes of our genesis much more vivid and real.

I'd love to see Tapakah log on and trigger a BDA raid on the neidar headquarters, or roleplay an army of rangers patrolling near Mordor.

I'd love to see more events take place all around so that there is always something NEW to do. Post them so we know when to be there. I would team up with my worst enemy knowing the Balrog was set loose in the shire or the Dwarf King goes nuts on sparkle for not hiring his dwarves for the stonework.

There's too many things hidden to make the game fun for the masses anymore. Step up the publicity to team and the event factor in the game.

it'll make all the difference.

B

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Megarius
Apprentice
Posts: 30
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 15:50

Re: Titles and Growth

Post by Megarius » 12 Mar 2010 16:44

Unfortunately human mentality will never change. Give someone enough power to become independent from rules and conditions that game is based on and they will show their real nature. I speak about myths of course. They think that if they reached a myth level they can just go on a rampage, kill whoever they want, do whatever they want, forget about respect and friendship that this game was based on and just be a slaughtering machine.

By increasing a 'level cap' wizards hoped that it will keep people playing, since if a level cap increased its a well known thing that people will come back and play to reach the next level cap. Unfortunately it also brings the consequences related to a PvP factor that Genesis is based on. Some people play this game strictly for an opportunity to attack ANYONE. Before when Genesis was still popular it was creating wars and all the fun behind it. There are no wars now, since there are not enough soldiers to fight those wars. Gen is more of a place now where people just come and stab you in the back and think to themselves that to kill a player who is actually much weaker is just a normal thing to do and the worst thing is that they have fun doing it. Its kinda sad that Genesis fell so low.

I remember good old days when guilds had to be at war in order for members of the guilds to be considered normal to attack other guild members. Now -

compare stats with X
You are a bit better blah blah than X.
get all from pack,
wear all,
wield all
kill X.

Thats how people play therse days. Genesis of today is more of a ruin of what Genesis used to be. And some people feel more like scavengers that are looking for some noob to kill with their oh so uber myth skills.

There are 2 groups of people in game right now. One group - switch to minotaurs and try to level up as fast as possible so that they can become aggressive and kill enyone they want, they believe that this is what Genesis is about. Other group of people is trying to actually play the game, RP here and there, go explore to find better equipment to put in guild racks and just have plain fun. Its a known fact that in general there are more people in good aligned guilds who like to RP and enjoy the game than in evil aligned guilds. Those other guys just play the game for dumb PvP. They could as well be playing World of Warcraft, wouldn't be any different. Same mentality and same behaviour.

Even with so few people left to play game if there was an intention to play the way Gen is supposed to be played - create intrigues, role play, create wars - it was still possible to be done. Thing is that its very hard to control the world with open PvP rules without an active dev team who is being paid for adjusting the game and adding new content. Was it mistake to increase level cap? Maybe. I think they should have tried to create some new content that champs could play, increase level cap a bit at a time etc. But thats the scenario for a game with 15$ of a monthly fee.

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: Titles and Growth

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 12 Mar 2010 16:59

Size difference doesn't matter as much these days.
Apparently with the changes to combat system an exper can hurt a myth etc..
Haven't seen that but have seen stuff like it.

I think champion title should be removed from other titles.
And if you want to mask your level you can..
options showrank off

Once you are over expert it would stick on champion and thats it.
I for one would mask my level, same way I don't want to appear on web stats.
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Megarius
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Re: Titles and Growth

Post by Megarius » 12 Mar 2010 18:17

They still can compare stats. Its not accurate but gives you an impression about the size of your opponent.

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