New player growth

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Megarius
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New player growth

Post by Megarius » 12 Mar 2010 17:19

I think the biggest draw back always was and still is in Genesis - time that it takes to level up to some decent levels. It may have thrown away quite a few people since 1995 when game was actually quite popular and there were times with 100+ people on at a time.

If you can't look at Genesis from the prospective of a noob - its about the time to stop reading and don't worry about posting comments either. I don't want to start the flame, just thinking out loud.

Standard game mechanics were and still are always based on leveling up your character either its a MUD or MMO. Advancing and becoming stronger as higher level/title/rank you reach was always a drawing force in games like that. MUD is not as different from the MMO concept. Its still a place for many people to meet and enjoy the fun. As many MMOs I've played I've heard one specific opinion many times - 'I feel lonely'. I've seen people quit games because when they joined everyone else was far ahead of them and it was very discouraging to play alone and maybe some day reach the level when you could enjoy the content that most of the people are at right now. And as longer it takes to level up as worse this affects new players. If you are thinking right now - "But I spent all this time to become a myth, blah blah blah" - you are not getting my point and probably one of those people who I addressed in the beginning of the post.

Leveling is a biggest test for players. And as longer that process is as worse that test becomes for some. Of course Genesis was never about leveling, it was bout roleplaying, about immersing yourself into this domain full of vast fun worlds. I still sometimes think when I look at all the MMOs that were out there and are, why nobody ever made a game similar to the game mechanics that Genesis or other similar MUDs have. Thats how much I am attached to Genesis. I was back in 1995 and I still am. Am I here because I can level to myth and then kill anyone I want? No, not me. Otherwise I'd be playing something else, visually exciting and adrenaline pumping. Genesis is good because you can imagine things the way they are described in your own words.

Problem is that all this immersion, vast worlds, opportunities to role-play are diminishing every time to you get killed or every time you think about how long will it take for you to level up and be able to stand up for yourself. On one hand Genesis is a nice RP game, on the other hand since it has open PvP world everyone is being forced to level up as fast as they can because people who already there they don't care about your opinion about the game, they just kill you when they see fit. So as much as we speak about RP, everyone mostly focuses on leveling, grinding, getting better equipment. Either its for being aggressive and killing others or standing up for yourself when you get attacked. No matter how much there is a talk about RP - there is always two groups of these players.

Its hard to really analyze game like Genesis since its a very narrow niche game these days. But its not easy to be a newbie player here. While there are a lot of people who's comments would make sense you just have to look in realities' face - number of players in Gen speaks on its own behalf. And no I am not a newbie. Been here for many years. And I am not a myth either. Played very casually for at least 12 years, and I only have 200+ days on my character. I am not here to kill, I am here to enjoy the game.
Last edited by Megarius on 12 Mar 2010 17:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: New player growth

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 12 Mar 2010 17:24

Think the brute reform stuff is most valid here.
Afterall if you have lots qxp its not much of a problem..
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Megarius
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Re: New player growth

Post by Megarius » 12 Mar 2010 17:29

It would make a lot of sense if they'd changed brutality system. It jus doesn't make sense that even with so few people left playing they still keep this hardcore leveling curve. Its like Bob is Myth and Joe is Wonderer. I bet they have fun playing together. If you want new players make the game a bit more newbie friendly. Its been many years and Gen didn't really change much, the biggest stopping force of the game - brutality is still almost the same as it was years ago.

Gen is a casual game, just smoothen down that brutality, and maybe some people will come back who never made it to champion when there was no level cap. It just never made sense to me that game was catering higher level players better than newbs, thats why numbers are so scarce these days.

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: New player growth

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 12 Mar 2010 19:52

With the code leaks that have gone in the past there is now a situation where certain players or groups of players have almost perfect quest info.
So they are able to get much more quest exp than "Joe I have been here for years but don't deserve to have an easy ride because I haven't got the right connections..."

There is some things that go on that don't sit that well with me.
For example if you do not kill the ABC Dragon yourself when doing quest X you get less experience.
Yet how is someone meant to know that if there was no warning and no feedback of a fail or chance to do it again...

Or wiz says okay I give the first X people to solve my quest X times the Exp of those who follow.
Fine is wizards didn't have seconds or friends...
Or if as soon as someone worked it out they couldn't share the info with their friends.

So on one hand we have the people who in extreme cases are able to make 3 or 4 huge myths in the time it takes a player who is playing hard but wasn't in on the "enhanced qxp cookbook" to reach titan.

So the issue of growth isn't reserved to new players!


But the fact is we accept this situation because it keeps some people below the others and creates a diverse player population.
Some may not like it if everyone was a myth within a year.
Reducing the long term playability.


Now Kudos to the administration for adding the quest Orbs, it was something I was among those who first suggested then firmly had in my top 10 list way back in the Eden days. At least people now know there are unsolved quests out there for them and can work at them.

Personally I would still like to see brute levels capped. So you are not forced to quest..
And also if you take a newb killing for example they do not suddenly jump to extremely violent and get very little benefit.

I posted the cap suggestion in the game. So its now on here too :)
http://www.genesismud.org/forums/viewto ... f=26&t=396

Here is the table of example levels cus it didn't come out well here.

Code: Select all

    Extremely Pacifistic : Wanderer                         Lowbie
         Very Pacifistic : Wanderer                         Lowbie
              Pacifistic : Wanderer Adventurer              Lowbie
    Somewhat Pacifistic  : Wanderer Adventurer 
    Slightly Pacifistic  : Wanderer Adventurer Adept
          Extremely Meek :          Adventurer Adept
               Very Meek :          Adventurer Adept        Great Adv
                    Meek :                     Adept        Great Adv
           Somewhat Meek : Veteran             Adept        Great Adv
           Slightly Meek : Veteran                          Great Adv
         Slightly Touchy : Veteran  Expert                  Great Adv
         Somewhat Touchy : Veteran  Expert 
                  Touchy : Veteran  Expert     Rising Hero
             Very Touchy :          Expert     Rising Hero
        Extremely Touchy :          Expert     Rising Hero  Hero
         Slightly Brutal :                     Rising Hero  Hero
         Somewhat Brutal : Titan               Rising Hero  Hero
                  Brutal : Titan                            Hero
             Very Brutal : Titan    Champion                Hero
        Extremely Brutal : Titan    Champion 
        Slightly Violent : Titan    Champion   Legend
        Somewhat Violent :          Champion   Legend
                 Violent :          Champion   Legend       Myth
            Very Violent :                     Legend       Myth
       Extremely Violent :                     Legend       Myth
This would mean with the size of the bands questing is still very beneficial but not forced on you.
It would also mean that people at the lower levels could grind and grow MUCH better than currently if they aren't a QEXP junkie.

At the top end of the scale it would not be all that different from what most players I know are around now.


However with such tiny brutes for lowbies we would have to limit the exp they get when teamed with huge players or they would be levelling up to veteran in a day. Something that Zin famously did with his QEXP knowledge, maybe this is an urban myth but it is accepted as fact by most people.
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Earth
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Re: New player growth

Post by Earth » 12 Mar 2010 20:02

Megarius,

Though I agree with some of the points in your discussion, I disagree with some of the premises that your argument is based on.
Megarius wrote:It would make a lot of sense if they'd changed brutality system. It jus doesn't make sense that even with so few people left playing they still keep this hardcore leveling curve. Its like Bob is Myth and Joe is Wonderer. I bet they have fun playing together. If you want new players make the game a bit more newbie friendly. Its been many years and Gen didn't really change much, the biggest stopping force of the game - brutality is still almost the same as it was years ago.

Gen is a casual game, just smoothen down that brutality, and maybe some people will come back who never made it to champion when there was no level cap. It just never made sense to me that game was catering higher level players better than newbs, thats why numbers are so scarce these days.
You are trying to argue that brutality should be changed to make it easier to level so that the people who are casual players can rise faster so that they can be big enough to complete with the powerplayers. Unfortunately, this isn't really the fault of the brutality system.

Unless you place a finite cap on how big you can become, casual players will never be able to compete with power players. If you adjust the system to allow leveling to occur faster for casual players, then the power player since they will rise the levels even faster than they do now.

Lets say that all other things being equal, you can advance to the level of champion in 2000 hours of active grinding. Lets say that a casual player currently grinds 10 hours a month and a powerplayer grinds 200 hours in a month, it will take 200 months of playing for the casual player and 10 months of playing for the powerplayer to reach champ. Let's say you modify the system so that it now only takes 200 hours of grinding to reach champ. The casual player will take 20 months to reach champ, and the powerplayer will only take only one month. This means that the powerplayer can now reach champ+ levels even faster, and thus making it harder for you to catch up in stats.

If you wanted to make players be more even in size, you would make it more difficult to advance so that the amount of time difference gives you less of a difference in levels, but this would just make the whole thing not fun, since if players don't see any reward, they won't play.

I agree that the brute system should be changed since questing gives people who already know the quests the advantage of those who don't (that I will post in a separate discussion some day), but I don't agree with changing the system to make it easier to advance.

Makfly
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Re: New player growth

Post by Makfly » 12 Mar 2010 20:11

Make all Xp, be just that. Xp. No more General, Quest and Combat Xp. Just plain old Xp.
That should remove the forced questing that's been going on forever in this game.
Since the Wizards that coded all these quests probably don't like to see their creations go unused, the Admin can multiply the Xp reward from quests by x10, so it's actually worth it (for some).


And while you're at it, make it so that stats matter ALOT less when you are fighting other players, that way the scripters, grinders, bots and power players won't be able to terrorize the game, and the "Have-nots" won't feel bummed out because they will never be able to stand up to the above mentioned group of players.

The "Haves" will ofcourse not like to see this happen, as they like their spot on the top of a steep pyramid, but since there really isn't that many players they can lord over, maybe they could accept it if they see an increased influx of new players.
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: New player growth

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 12 Mar 2010 20:21

I would also support you idea Makfly, even tho it is maybe a more radical departure? I think it would rock...

On the stats not mattering as much for PvP I really do think that has come about already.
Someone said it to me that the combat system change made this a reality.
And I am starting to believe it.
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Rhynox
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Re: New player growth

Post by Rhynox » 12 Mar 2010 20:28

The truth is, newbies start the game very small. They are novice, greenhornes or maybe beginner, but that is just enough to kill orcs and uruks in the small Sparkle orc camp. They should at least start as wanderers or adventurers to be able to hit the big Sparkle orc camp or kretans. When a newbie asks me what he can do to grow, I either take him to Faerun to grow from novice to wanderer in a couple of hours, or tell him to herb for days until he reaches wanderer.

I would suggest giving triple or quadruple experience in the newbie area, or force them to kill things that actually give a lot of experience there. None of the old players will complain because a newbie starts proper Genesis at wanderer.

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: New player growth

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 12 Mar 2010 20:48

It they "graduate" from greenholm ie do all the quests and a bit of grinding they are likely beginner/apprentice.
I think it would be a mistake to remove levels.
After all seeing yourself progress is going to make you happy.
If they have a limited brute effect the growth could go quite fast under their own steam.
Need to think about having enough areas to cater for the grind at each area of growth.
Need to have that sort of info to hand as a guide on where to go what to do next.
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Maizara

Re: New player growth

Post by Maizara » 12 Mar 2010 20:57

Pfft I say everyone just start at Myth, save us all the hassel

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