Melee combat balance: races and stats

Discuss ideas for how to make the game better. Wizards, take note!
Forum rules
- Use common sense and be respectful towards each other at all times, even when disagreeing.
- Do not reveal sensitive game information. Guild secrets, player seconds are examples of things not allowed.
Sharn
Expert
Posts: 289
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 12:34

Melee combat balance: races and stats

Post by Sharn » 25 Mar 2010 15:58

Goblins are UBER and elves are wee

I believe that (combat stats) strength, dexterity and constitution are most important stats for melee combat.
Intelligence, wisdom and discipline have minor (if any) value for melee combat.
Because of race characteristics some races are considered more powerful (in melee combat) then others.

Goblins are superior to all other races.
Ogres are superior even to goblins, but they are exclusively connected to one guild,
so I do not really consider them race but rather a guild with permament bonus to stats.

I think humans are significantly worse then goblins.
Then come all other races (all significantly weaker then humans): dwarves, elves, hobbits and gnomes.
Dwarves are probably bit better then elves, hobbits and gnomes but have very low dexterity.

At least 3 out of 6 (4 if you count dwarves - I am not sure how to classify dwarves) races are much weaker then others.
You can argue that those races would be better suited for a magic guild, where goblins would be disadvantaged.
The point is that magic guild options for genesis are very limited and probably the situation is not going to change any soon.

At least 3 out of 6 races are suited better for magic guilds but magic guilds are very rare.

Example

For example I will take a goblin and an elf.

Lets suppose a goblin and an elf with similiar experience are both gladiators or mercenaries.

I believe that goblin will be much more effective then an elf and will easily win a combat with an elf.
In fantasy literature elven warriors were quite powerful and I believe elven warrior would have chance in fair
fight with goblin, which might not be the case in Genesis.

Questions, questions

1. Do you think it is true? Maybe I am wrong and elf gladiator would easily win with goblin gladiator assuming both have similar experience (and focus on combat stats)?

2. Maybe I am wrong and mental stats (wisdom, intelligence and discipline) are important for melee combat and elf should focus on his wisdom and intelligence and would have equal chances with goblin focused on his combat stats?

3. Is it supposed (by design) to be so that some races should be (significantly) better warriors then others?
3.1 If so, do you think it is good and acceptable?
3.2 if so, how much better is acceptable?

4. What could be improved? If what I assume above is true, could something be done to improve the situation for the physically weaker races?

My view

It seems that right now goblins are more powerful and therefore they can gather experience faster then others, which makes then even more powerful.

1. Races should NOT all be equal in terms of stats - it would be boring.

2. Elf (and others races) warrior should be viable option.

3. Races should differ and some could be better warriors then others. But how much better is right?

4. All stats should be valuable and your choice of race and stats should not be easy (not just pumping combat stats)

5. Discipline (courage, heroism) is what makes heroes.
Spartans were great warriors. Their greatest strength(!) was discipline and courage.
Discipline should be important for combat.

6. Arguably, intelligence and wisdom are greatest weapon of the human kind.
Intelligence and wisdom should be more important.

My idea

The intelligence, wisdom and discipline should be more valuable and desired. How to make them more valuable?

Wisdom and intelligence affect how much experience is earned.

Discipline affects all other stats.
Example: each time strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, wisdom is checked part of discipline is added.

So effectively your stat is: stat + part of discipline

High discipline is important.

Makfly
Champion
Posts: 608
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 00:36

Re: Melee combat balance: races and stats

Post by Makfly » 25 Mar 2010 16:18

I was told that it has changed a little bit these days, but in the past Dex was king. Therefore Hobbits were often superior.
So I am not sure your initial premise is even true, there making all of it a rather moot point.

Ofcourse, you could turn it on it's head and ask why Dex. is so important, and wouldn't it be better if Str. helped more in combat. I believe this argument have been presented plenty of times in the past, and why, supposedly, Str. now have an increased effect on combat results. Still, Dex. is the most important combat stat.

Someone with wizinfo can probably correct me on the above, if it's not so anymore. :D
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

User avatar
Tarax the Terrible
Myth
Posts: 1331
Joined: 09 Mar 2010 20:33
Location: UK

Re: Melee combat balance: races and stats

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 25 Mar 2010 16:39

Heheheh I nearly got in serious trouble for carrying out experiments with this in the past.
I was testing the theory that Hobbits were UBER!
Double logging newbies to fight them against each other.
Were even rumours I had been deleted.
So staying wellllll clear of this one.

I do believe str and con matter a bit more now than in the past which is nice.

In terms of non combat stats mattering more. That is for the wussy mages.
Just kidding they do effect certain things already.
But if someone is above a decent level of discipline I don't think it would matter than much.
They just will not flinch as much when the Ogre is beating the crap out of them..
http://genesisquests.pbworks.com/
Join up and help each other with Quests :)

Sharn
Expert
Posts: 289
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 12:34

Re: Melee combat balance: races and stats

Post by Sharn » 25 Mar 2010 17:01

Tarax the Terrible wrote:But if someone is above a decent level of discipline I don't think it would matter than much.
They just will not flinch as much when the Ogre is beating the crap out of them..
Following your thoughts:

But if someone is above a decent level of strength I don't think it would matter than much.
They just will not whine as much when the Ogre is beating the crap out of them..

Rhynox
Titan
Posts: 493
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 03:48
Location: Departed from here. Meet at Genesis!

Re: Melee combat balance: races and stats

Post by Rhynox » 25 Mar 2010 18:33

The point where goblins are the weakest (discipline) is exactly the one you don't use at all. That has been my complain for quite a lot of time, suggesting that panic should drop faster if you are not disciplined enough (aka, goblins should stop grinding after an hour of non-stop fighting bigger enemies because they would turn panicked). I wish I could remove all my discipline and put it in the physical stats, I don't care not being able to attack something, most big things autoattack anyways.

User avatar
Tarax the Terrible
Myth
Posts: 1331
Joined: 09 Mar 2010 20:33
Location: UK

Re: Melee combat balance: races and stats

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 25 Mar 2010 19:11

I would also like to see panic and fear playing a bigger role.
You could go through your entire characters life and never wimp once because of panic.


Sharn,
The high str guy takes his mace and batters the head clean off the other guy in one hit.
My point is difference between brave and really brave not much effect when it comes down to the head smashing time.
But difference between strong and really strong seems easier to understand to me at least.

But okay I will take your point forward.
For discipline to have added effect I would think that you would need to have change to system where adrenalin and controlling it becomes an option.
Someone with lower dis has lower will power. They might get carried away and enter a killing frenzy.
Added haste, Added STR, added fatigue, reduced accuracy.
IE "power is nothing without control" mantra

BTW my current secondary stat focus is on dis!
heheh maybe i should change that.
http://genesisquests.pbworks.com/
Join up and help each other with Quests :)

User avatar
Trutblemma
Adventurer
Posts: 94
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 13:41
Location: Not where I want to be

Re: Melee combat balance: races and stats

Post by Trutblemma » 25 Mar 2010 20:01

Tarax the Terrible wrote:I would also like to see panic and fear playing a bigger role.
You could go through your entire characters life and never wimp once because of panic.
Ohh, wimpying from panic, Ive done that, more than once :lol:
It's quite efficient, and rather funny. (In a very annoying way)

Tarax the Terrible wrote:BTW my current secondary stat focus is on dis!
heheh maybe i should change that.
:shock: Please!!! make it your FIRST stat focus......
//Emma's overseer

User avatar
Mersereau
Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 01:05
Contact:

Re: Melee combat balance: races and stats

Post by Mersereau » 25 Mar 2010 20:14

Most of you young'uns don't remember when dis was needed to lead a team.
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
-Mel Brooks

Rhynox
Titan
Posts: 493
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 03:48
Location: Departed from here. Meet at Genesis!

Re: Melee combat balance: races and stats

Post by Rhynox » 25 Mar 2010 21:08

Thankfully not, would hate to be led around as a calian :P

User avatar
Mersereau
Champion
Posts: 572
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 01:05
Contact:

Re: Melee combat balance: races and stats

Post by Mersereau » 25 Mar 2010 22:04

It was way before that!
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."
-Mel Brooks

Post Reply
http://tworzymyatmosfere.pl/przescieradla-jedwabne-z-gumka/