Melee combat balance: races and stats

[Tarax the Terrible]

None of the points win you over enh?

But what you choose to question are not assumptions.
I am not assuming anything but talking for experience.
Yes there are a lot of variables in any equation but I gave you an instance of controlled experiment where knight pwned.
I have fought neidars as DA and been pwned unless we brought greater numbers.
Champ Neidar slammer beating the crap out of two titan BDA/Bmasters.
Only time we beat the crap out of Neidars was if the PoT came along for the hunt.
Neidars just love to see a gobbo game for a fight and the racial hatred kicks in.

You disagree that evil is balanced down?

[Sharn]

(I don't know why its only rumours, people should know what they need to train and focus on, those with the wiz info know etc)

100% agreement
It should be required that every ability is described. The top secret policy is way overboard.
Next guild opened wont even tell you that you have special

[Sharn]

But this is not just hot air, was an experiment once arranged by BDA general and high up knight drafting me in to arena battle a knight.
Two titans. Me and nigget who will remain nameless. Same identical solamnic gear.
He beat me up, but it was close enough he was TH I think..
Everyone happy, then we revealed our stats.
Because of whole chars life spent focusing whereas he had run level my combat stats where hugely ahead of his.
I am talking forceful versus immortal type gaps.
Everyone not so happy.
(But the solamnic gear also sucked, which effected the more equipment dependant BDA worse)

There are also rumours that discipline is very important for the knights (the brave knight stereotype )
There are conflicting rumours that every stat is important for the knight (to suit the elves, dwarves and humans?)

Also would be interesting to repeat the fight few times.
From my experience knight attack is very random.

Were it just occ knight vs occ DA or laymans included? Was the knight in the old cavalry? The old cavalry rocked
I believe it would be pretty much equal now as well. In team fights team of knights would have the advantage of rescue.

[Tarax the Terrible]

(I don't know why its only rumours, people should know what they need to train and focus on, those with the wiz info know etc)

100% agreement
It should be required that every ability is described. The top secret policy is way overboard.
Next guild opened wont even tell you that you have special

I guess the reason this isn't published to the ignorant hordes is that certain guilds are tailored more to certain racial bonuses so it might create more dissatisfaction if everyone knoew the best race for a merc was a gnome as a fictious example. And there would be a lot more people complaining than you and me.

The only way around something like that would be for guild specials to only be influenced by guild experience and equipment.
But I don't think that is practical. As you say yourself you want your stats to mean something.

[Sharn]

Have also sparred without stunning and done very badly versus other guilds.
But stunning is in the equation of course, which is why the monks have been "balanced" to not be a rabid killer guild.

Agree - monk without stun is pathetic.
I believe, that the common stun code will be applied after the recode (so we wont be able to keep enemy stunned).
And the golden monks era will be over.

[Sharn]

You disagree that evil is balanced down?

I am evil drow now, and was evil goblin / minotaur for few months. I have not see any sign of imbalance as of yet.
In fact goblin / minotaur monk is godmode

Summary: Regarding to data I have collected so far I disagree.
But I am open for discussion and new facts and arguments. I am easy to convince if you provide enough facts.

[Tarax the Terrible]

Maybe a bit off topic, but still related to melee combat balance.

I was talking about it with someone yesterday and I couldn't understand why AA started more powerful after the return.
They were bound to get players comming back to play AA.
Those players were bound to stomp around trying to kill anything that moved and be chaos personified.
Large teams of players picking on enemies at a disadvantage.
Which was also bound to lead to a nerf.
Which also probably lead to people leaving.

I think better option is to start low and let the players have their fun causing trouble.
Then when the fuss dies down a bit give them a bit of an upgrade and keep the people there for the longer term more happy.

Guess hindsight is a wonderful thing..

[Sharn]

Maybe a bit off topic, but still related to melee combat balance.

I was talking about it with someone yesterday and I couldn't understand why AA started more powerful after the return.
They were bound to get players comming back to play AA.
Those players were bound to stomp around trying to kill anything that moved and be chaos personified.
Large teams of players picking on enemies at a disadvantage.
Which was also bound to lead to a nerf.
Which also probably lead to people leaving.

I think better option is to start low and let the players have their fun causing trouble.
Then when the fuss dies down a bit give them a bit of an upgrade and keep the people there for the longer term more happy.

Guess hindsight is a wonderful thing..

Lately I tried:
human Knight herald champion
human Knight BM champion
goblin Monk minotaur champion
ogre pirate hero
goblin AA templar veteran

I tried the goblin AA, templar after the nerf. And I would say it is even more powerful then monk / minotaur.
But AA (and templars) are evil and minotaur monk has advantage of being neutral.

I have log of Brate (goblin, AA, bloodguard, champion) completely owning Irk. Brate fvw : Irk ba (no heals and tricks)
Both had top notch eq but Brate's golden shield broke at the beggining of the fight and Brate switched to Bubba's shield.
Irk attacked Brate in Gelan, thinking Brate will be easy prey

Angmar is very powerful melee guild. I would provide the arguments here but that would be hard without revealing guild abilities, so you have to guess

Heralds are joke. Period. Only viable for hardcore RP or wannabe support or healers.

Ogre...hmm...As a hero I was able to kill things I was not able to kill as a hero knight. Naked, unarmed, barely scratched
So listening to Lindros whine makes me wonder

Monks - stun wins where applicable. If you add some damage to it you are invincible. When you cant stun - you better leave
Without the stun, with layman damage, monks are mediocre damage guild.
Without the stun, without layman damage, monks are low damage guild.

Knights are mediocre. Less damage then angmar. Little below average tanking (sorry cannot go into details again).
Team of knights has advantage of rescue which is great, providing that you can find other knight to team. In most of the cases I did not.
So I would say knights are well balanced providing they have team of knights.
Solo knights are mediocre. I got the impression in teams that glads did better damage, but probably was the "grass is greener..." effect.
Calia is also balanced for teams but they do not have to team with calians to get full team benefit.

Ranking (from my experience playing them)
1. Ogres
2. Angmar
3. Monks
4. Knights

Have not tested DA. I got the impression that knight attack equals BDA attack - but have no data.

[Tarax the Terrible]

There is also a big difference in how players play their characters and peoples view about balance are generally driven by those at the extreme.
So a knight or BDA or monk might have the potential to be uber but only a small % of those playing them are unlocking them to that full potential.

So another first hand experience example, saw Poet and Carnak as old knight / cavalry fighting Saya in Flotsam. All had the uber gear the knights with max haste, runnies and kinghts with silvanesti shields etc. They were beating the crap out of Saya, at which point Zagar as PoT and I as BDA joined in 3 teams flying around the place. The two knights tore all challenging them apart without breaking a sweat. They were probably using potions etc everything to their best advantage. But you come away from it think wow that knight guild is really powerful. With hindsight I should have been saying those two sure know how to get the best out of their abilities.

There are a lot of guild out there with the potential for god mode and some players making the most out of it while some others don't.
Its a shame that the balance attempts will likely hit hardest those who are not unlocking the full potential.
For example monks loosing polearm skill, I think this hurt the small monks a lot more than the big ones.

[Sharn]

There is also a big difference in how players play their characters and peoples view about balance are generally driven by those at the extreme.
So a knight or BDA or monk might have the potential to be uber but only a small % of those playing them are unlocking them to that full potential.

So another first hand experience example, saw Poet and Carnak as old knight / cavalry fighting Saya in Flotsam. All had the uber gear the knights with max haste, runnies and kinghts with silvanesti shields etc. They were beating the crap out of Saya, at which point Zagar as PoT and I as BDA joined in 3 teams flying around the place. The two knights tore all challenging them apart without breaking a sweat. They were probably using potions etc everything to their best advantage. But you come away from it think wow that knight guild is really powerful. With hindsight I should have been saying those two sure know how to get the best out of their abilities.

There are a lot of guild out there with the potential for god mode and some players making the most out of it while some others don't.
Its a shame that the balance attempts will likely hit hardest those who are not unlocking the full potential.
For example monks loosing polearm skill, I think this hurt the small monks a lot more than the big ones.

You are right here. I am sure I am not that good at playing knight as Poet.
I compared the casual playstyle aka grind.
Also I tested AA and ogre at low experience level - the experience may vary later on.