Statcap

[Velicus]

Once again, since you didn't actually say anything...

I'm left to suspect the people who can't defend their views with reason are acting out of self-interest rather than community.

Your frequent attempts to turn this into 4chan only reinforces that perception of you.

[Greywolf]

why exactly do you think that the only future for Genesis is listening to those who fail at grinding while muting out those who don't?
who are you guys to say what appeals to Xar and what doesn't?
who are you to tell all those who didn't fail at grinding that they are not welcome in "your" game anymore (if they don't accept "your" terms)?

I am a person who has the following opinions.


I didn't fail at grinding - I don't do more of it because it isn't fun.

I have no problem being small and I know exactly what to do to get bigger.

I think if I was suddenly Xar's size I would regularly get my ass handed to me by smaller characters with more PvP skill so just being big doesn't mean I will be able to compete with the large characters.

Believing a size cap is a good thing has nothing to do with wanting to be bigger/as big as others.

The future for Genesis is in attracting new players. That might mean making the game not fun for some current players.

There is no one that I would like to see leave Genesis. I hope the game will eventually have elements in it that are attractive to a broad range of players including power players

I think the idea of unlimited growth, even if its extremely slow, is fundamentally flawed and has been from the very beginning.

I don't think the game appeals to as large a group of people as it could. In fact I can't see it appealing to anything but an extremely small group of people. I think this will prevent any meaningful growth in the number of new players we have.

I think without meaningful new player growth the game is dead.

To appeal to more new players I think the game needs a size cap, a reasonable, straightforward growth structure that is unrelated to questing and a reasonable growth curve that will allow new players to reach the size cap in a reasonable amount of time. ( n.b. the key word there is reasonable)The game will also need new, creative reasons to do quests.

I think the game, as it is now, encourages a small group of a specific type of players at the expense of a much larger, more diverse group of players and I think this should change.

[Greywolf]

Having read through all the argumentation back and forth, I see some very interesting pointers for and against stat cap. In essence I agree in total with Earths approach.

I am repeating some arguments here I know but:
Making a hard statcap now in game whose entire balance (both poor and well parts of it) being based on the logarithmic statcap - brute and NPCs size vs myth sized players (especially considering some of the hidden bonuses for a few races and guilds by forcing the hardcap) for +15 years and considering also that so many people enjoy the unlimited stat growth makes me a player voting against the statcap.

I do see the pro's if we were to build the game from scratch and it was easy to implement the other grinding rewards. Since that is not the case, Genesis balance is founded on the brute/logarithmic cap, and wizard manpower being what it is, I feel the cons by far outweigh the pros.

Well - If thats the case I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think new players will be attracted to Genesis as it is now. I believe if the growth structure isn't drastically changed the player base will just gradually shrink.

[Earth]

Well - If thats the case I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think new players will be attracted to Genesis as it is now. I believe if the growth structure isn't drastically changed the player base will just gradually shrink.

I disagree with you there Greywolf. If you look at recent activity, it seems that if anything activity has increased on average since Gorboth and his team began to make his changes. I'm sure when he returns he can do more of his famous graphs and statistics to back things up.

Really, as I've said in another post, I don't believe that changing the game rules or mechanics in itself will really affect activity in a positive way that much. If anything, changing the rules usually means that people leave.

I believe that the biggest influence on player activity is really the player community itself. If we are supportive of each other and help each other, then what is the harm if someone is much bigger than another? If we can keep conflicts between players more "friendly", then that only helps to encourage players to stay.

In all my years of playing Genesis, I have been amazed by all the "bad feelings" that players have for each other. I have seen some players simply attack and hunt others at any opportunity because of some incidents in the past. I have seen guilds hold other guilds hostage simply because of one incident or another in the past. I have seen name calling on both sides. I will think that any or all of these really make most new and older players simply not play anymore.

I still play because I really enjoy it, and I feel that I can make a good impact in the realms. I try and encourage new players and give them a sense that they have friends in the realms. Though in a RP sense, I may be enemies with a particular guild, but that doesn't mean I don't try to at least maintain some kind of contact with them. If I run into some roadblock or death in the game, I get mad and upset for a bit, then calm down and recover.

I challenge you all to go and make a positive impact on the game, that itself will do more to increasing activity than any change in statcap.

[Greywolf]

Well - If thats the case I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think new players will be attracted to Genesis as it is now. I believe if the growth structure isn't drastically changed the player base will just gradually shrink.

I disagree with you there Greywolf. If you look at recent activity, it seems that if anything activity has increased on average since Gorboth and his team began to make his changes. I'm sure when he returns he can do more of his famous graphs and statistics to back things up.

You are right about the increase in activity, Earth. Gorboth and his team have done an excellent job listening to and responding to player input and put a lot of time and effort into improving the game. But I don't think the increase in activity is an indication of new players. I think its mostly old players playing again or current players playing more frequently.

Really, as I've said in another post, I don't believe that changing the game rules or mechanics in itself will really affect activity in a positive way that much. If anything, changing the rules usually means that people leave.

In the short term some people will leave but others who used to play, but aren't playing now, will probably start playing again; some people who are playing now will probably play more and more people who try genesis for the first time might continue playing for a significant amount of time. In the long term I think not only activity would increase but also the number of new players.

I believe that the biggest influence on player activity is really the player community itself. If we are supportive of each other and help each other, then what is the harm if someone is much bigger than another? If we can keep conflicts between players more "friendly", then that only helps to encourage players to stay.

In all my years of playing Genesis, I have been amazed by all the "bad feelings" that players have for each other. I have seen some players simply attack and hunt others at any opportunity because of some incidents in the past. I have seen guilds hold other guilds hostage simply because of one incident or another in the past. I have seen name calling on both sides. I will think that any or all of these really make most new and older players simply not play anymore.

I agree with 99% of this. For new players, I think the main reason for not continuing to play is the growth structure but once someone is here and playing and has accepted the game for what it is then you are absolutely right. The player community has the biggest impact on whether people stay or leave.

I still play because I really enjoy it, and I feel that I can make a good impact in the realms. I try and encourage new players and give them a sense that they have friends in the realms. Though in a RP sense, I may be enemies with a particular guild, but that doesn't mean I don't try to at least maintain some kind of contact with them. If I run into some roadblock or death in the game, I get mad and upset for a bit, then calm down and recover.

I challenge you all to go and make a positive impact on the game, that itself will do more to increasing activity than any change in statcap.

I agree with you, Earth, in that it wouldn't matter what is done if there isn't a positive, supportive community in the game. But I still think the growth structure is the single biggest problem for new players.

[Tarax the Terrible]

why exactly do you think that the only future for Genesis is listening to those who fail at grinding while muting out those who don't?
who are you guys to say what appeals to Xar and what doesn't?
who are you to tell all those who didn't fail at grinding that they are not welcome in "your" game anymore (if they don't accept "your" terms)?

I am a person who has the following opinions.


I didn't fail at grinding - I don't do more of it because it isn't fun.

I have no problem being small and I know exactly what to do to get bigger.

I think if I was suddenly Xar's size I would regularly get my ass handed to me by smaller characters with more PvP skill so just being big doesn't mean I will be able to compete with the large characters.

Believing a size cap is a good thing has nothing to do with wanting to be bigger/as big as others.

The future for Genesis is in attracting new players. That might mean making the game not fun for some current players.

There is no one that I would like to see leave Genesis. I hope the game will eventually have elements in it that are attractive to a broad range of players including power players

I think the idea of unlimited growth, even if its extremely slow, is fundamentally flawed and has been from the very beginning.

I don't think the game appeals to as large a group of people as it could. In fact I can't see it appealing to anything but an extremely small group of people. I think this will prevent any meaningful growth in the number of new players we have.

I think without meaningful new player growth the game is dead.

To appeal to more new players I think the game needs a size cap, a reasonable, straightforward growth structure that is unrelated to questing and a reasonable growth curve that will allow new players to reach the size cap in a reasonable amount of time. ( n.b. the key word there is reasonable)The game will also need new, creative reasons to do quests.

I think the game, as it is now, encourages a small group of a specific type of players at the expense of a much larger, more diverse group of players and I think this should change.

You've convinced me..

People like didelith barin and crom used to say please can we have a new level after myth.
Its tough for others to catch up surely.
The inequality of quest exp with some more than is possible to get nowadays give some people turbo charged cars in that race.
So you are starting to convince me.

But brute caps are something I would also be in favour of, min max for each level.

I have played other muds where I reach the cap in a week. That was pathetic.
Myth.. is big enough for cap.
But we have various myth plus... so how do you deal with those already way up there.
Perhaps supreme as cap for every stat.

But if you start having less to play with maybe you need a mechanism to redistribute...

[Creed]

I would think the best place to cap it, would be at a level where you can die around 1½ times, from max, and still be myth.

So if you die, grind some back, and die again, you have a chance to still be myth.
If you don't grind in between, you will be legend.

I think that these days, a guy like Irk, can probably die a couple of times, before he is below myth.

[Greywolf]

You've convinced me..

People like didelith barin and crom used to say please can we have a new level after myth.
Its tough for others to catch up surely.
The inequality of quest exp with some more than is possible to get nowadays give some people turbo charged cars in that race.
So you are starting to convince me.

But brute caps are something I would also be in favour of, min max for each level.

I have played other muds where I reach the cap in a week. That was pathetic.
Myth.. is big enough for cap.
But we have various myth plus... so how do you deal with those already way up there.
Perhaps supreme as cap for every stat.

But if you start having less to play with maybe you need a mechanism to redistribute...

Something like brute caps could close the gap between a new player and a myth. My only concern is the myth is still getting bigger. That growth really needs to stop at some point otherwise the growth rate of new players has to be continually adjusted.

I think a cap on size, not stats, is the way to go. The racial and occupational differences add flavour to the game and shouldn't be lost. Ogres should never be as smart as they are strong for example.

I am not sure the character sizes need to be shrunk necessarily. A size cap at the level of the largest character, or maybe even bigger, might be OK. But that's just the start. I think the whole growth system needs to be rethought. The result needs to be a reasonable time frame for a new character to hit the cap, or at least come close to it. Maybe 12 to 18 months. When someone hits the cap then what Creed suggests sounds reasonable to me. One death and you are still myth but two and you're back down to legend unless you do some grinding.

[Bomrim]

Greywolf, they want people to become myths because you'd never know who's the strongest, like when champion was the highest mortal level.

[Greywolf]

Greywolf, they want people to become myths because you'd never know who's the strongest, like when champion was the highest mortal level.

That might be what some people want but I would like see the growth system changed to make the game more appealing to a broader group of players.