Statcap

Discuss ideas for how to make the game better. Wizards, take note!
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Velicus
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Re: Statcap

Post by Velicus » 22 Jun 2010 13:57

Laurel wrote:I vote for stat-cap at the level of 400 (for each stat) - I wonder why none of you would be satisfied :lol:
YESSSSS!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS NOT COMPLETELY IDIOTIC, YESSS!!! START SOMEWHERE!!!!

There are different people who want different kinds of stat caps, but there is NO intelligent reason that anyone has ever presented for not setting a stat cap that no one has reached yet. OBVIOUSLY, the ideal would be to set it to where the biggest player is to minimize the current damage, but with the improbably of the whole of Genesis de-petrifying their unimpressive configuration of neural pathways, I'm happy with any progress whatsoever.
Tarax wrote:No cap. Diminishing returns.
This is not an economy. Economics is used to create incentives for work that people would not normally do out of pure pleasure. Genesis should be out of pure pleasure!!! It's supposed to be FUN NOT WORK. The for-profit model of many big MMOs are about using effective reward systems to get people addicted and then economic principles to keep them competing endlessly. They do it for money, governments do it for control, you're trying to do it to feed your own addiction. Genesis should be appealing as a release from such things, as it already is when such elements are removed, not an addiction that creates more of the same.

Here's another hint... working at a job for a couple decades to watch a number go up in your bank account merely to have a house, car, job title, and spouse that enjoys finding ways to make that number go down is NOT fun and will NOT make you happy. Anyone who thinks that is imagining a future happiness that they are working toward but once they get there, look around, and see they are not happy and have what is often called a midlife crisis. It's not too different with Genesis, but some of you are pushing to keep things the way they are because you've worked to achieve upper- or middle-management and don't want to admit to yourself that you wasted a bunch of time working for something that wasn't necessary for the reward. Some of us, like myself, see and try to enjoy the reward to be had now, but are still being compelled to compete, don't enjoy that aspect of it, and want it to go away so we can show and share the joy that Genesis can bring. At the moment, I do not recommend this as a new game to ANYONE. If it were actually still a good game, we would still have many players. Stop deluding yourselves into thinking there is anything to blame but the quality of the game itself. And then realize the quality could be improved drastically just by removing a few stupid incentives. Tada.

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: Statcap

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 22 Jun 2010 14:40

We have missed your cool analytical analysis.
Gives me food for thought.
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Sharn
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Re: Statcap

Post by Sharn » 22 Jun 2010 14:46

velicus wrote: Here's another hint... working at a job for a couple decades to watch a number go up in your bank account merely to have a house, car, job title, and spouse that enjoys finding ways to make that number go down is NOT fun and will NOT make you happy.
Oh my...you have ruined my life. I thought I am happy but alas...not anymore.
But what if I am happy? Can I? Please?
I also watch a number of kids go up. Should I be depressed now? :mrgreen:

Trying to say: you have to consider, that:
a) you might be wrong,
b) some people may like other things and think in different ways, then you do.

Velicus
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Re: Statcap

Post by Velicus » 22 Jun 2010 15:05

sharn wrote: Oh my...you have ruined my life. I thought I am happy but alas...not anymore.
But what if I am happy? Can I? Please?
I also watch a number of kids go up. Should I be depressed now? :mrgreen:

Trying to say: you have to consider, that:
a) you might be wrong,
b) some people may like other things and think in different ways, then you do.
There are people who have those things, and more, but are still miserable. There are people who don't have them and are happy. They don't _make_ you happy. Anyway, my point is, sometimes people chase what everyone else wants and not what they want themselves. I, for one, don't want grind and don't want to 'work' for a reward in a game. I want to have 'fun' and get the same rewards. At present, it is a mix. I want more fun, less work. And since it's quite possible, I think it's stupid other people don't see it.

Laurel

Re: Statcap

Post by Laurel » 22 Jun 2010 15:07

there's ppl who always choose "easy AI" in any game they play and there's ppl who prefer to choose "hardcore mode" even if they don't know the game yet

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Rhaegar
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Re: Statcap

Post by Rhaegar » 22 Jun 2010 15:14

Laurel wrote:there's ppl who always choose "easy AI" in any game they play and there's ppl who prefer to choose "hardcore mode" even if they don't know the game yet
Tried that with Jedi Outcast recently. No can do :(

Back on topic: And what if instead of stat-cap there would be a brute cap? I know it was mentioned somewhere that brute could reach be made so it finally reaches the point, where it consumes 100% of your exp (extremely violent -> too violent).
I'm sure that people would be able to grow still (even Xar) until they reach it, then they would have to wait for the introduction of some new quests to be able to grow more.
I fear no evil for I am fear incarnate.

Makfly
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Re: Statcap

Post by Makfly » 22 Jun 2010 16:33

This shitflinging is really distracting us from a pretty important and interesting discussion, so perhaps we should try and get it back on track, without all the hyberbolic BS and grandstanding.

First I think it would be good to take out words like "skill" and "work" out of this discussion.
It doesn't take "skill" to grow big in Genesis. Actually it's so easy that you can automate it with relatively simple scripting.
It also isn't "work". You' play Genesis for fun and to entertain yourself, it's not a job.
It isn't "work" to grind endlessly, as mentioned above, hell you can script to make the game play itself, while you sleep or watch a movie, or do actual work.

So what does it take to grow to Myth++ size in this game? Time. That's all.

Unfortunately, you cannot invest time in a game retroactively, and even if all big myths stopped playing now, it'd still be years of "normal" game time, to reach a similiar statlevel. :)


I think the problem with inflated statlevels are:

1. So far Genesis is a Free-For-All(FFA) Player-vs-Player(PvP) game. If the game is supposed to be that way, then I want balance.
I don't want players who have oceans of time to grind manually, or players who employ scripts to auto-grind, to have a huge advantage over me in PvP, should they choose to impose their lust for PvP on me.
It's fairly simple. A level playing field makes for more interesting combat seen from the perspecive of the population as a whole. Seen from the individual level, I want to be a huge myth and the rest of you should be greenhorne levels. Then I can lord over the game, as I please, and the rest of you only play at my behest.

2. If Genesis is a Player-vs-Enviroment(PvE) focused game, where PvP cannot be forced upon me by others, then everyone can grow as they please, I could not care less...
The problem then occurs when wizards tool new content to the biggest of characters, because they ran out of stuff to grind, then it's harder for me, as a lowly Titan to do much, because the game gets more and more tooled towards something I am not.
Also, since I play the game for the social aspect / roleplaying / guild interaction, I need people to play with, as my interests are inherently "multiplayer". You can talk while grinding, and many often do, but some serious grinders (no names mentioned), are not interested in engaging in the "multiuser" part of the MUD. :)

3. Some people get a sense of achievement by competeting with others and beating them. If those kinds of people join Genesis, they might get heavily discouraged by the investment of time they have to commit, to even reaching Titan, let alone huge myth. Plus with the bar ever raising, chances are they give up early and try some other computer game to spend their time on.

I'd like to direct the attention to my first post in this thread (post #4), it's not optimal for sure, but it's deals with the problem, and throws a bone to the scripters/super grinders etc.


Anyway I do not think that the Admin can get out of making an unpopular choice on this issue.
The status quo and uncertainty is not acceptable, and the other two choices the Admin have, are choosing to bet on getting new players in and cater the game towards them, or bet to retain the super grinders and running the game with the increasing imbalances we see in the game today.
We don't actually have any proof of either new players not wanting to stick around in Genesis because of this imbalance, nor do we have proof that any of the big myths would quit if the Admin took away their huge stats. And even if a few people quit, would it really effect game in any significant way?
And if nothing at all is done, how many will leave then?

I really think it's a huge problem for this game, that we, the community, is SO small, and yet we are SO far apart from each other.
We need the Admin to step up to the plate and put forth a concrete vision, and dole out a course, so that we, the players, can start rowing in the same direction or jump ship depending on our liking of said course.

Phew, that was longwinded. I hope it makes sense. :)
Mortimor Makfly - Gnomish Xeno-Anthropologist

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Earth
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Re: Statcap

Post by Earth » 22 Jun 2010 16:41

The whole statcap topic seems to have blown up quickly. Really it comes down to this:

1. Genesis is based on a time for reward exchange.
The whole game is designed so that the more time you spend in the game, the more reward you receive. Some people play for the sheer statistics and size, others play for RP, others gathering EQ, others questing, but in the end you get rewarded for the time you spend.

2. There will always be those people who spend more time in the game than you.
Even the ones who are most active go on vacation, have real life to deal with or have to deal with necessities like drinking ;) and sleeping. Some of us have more obligations and others.

Analysis
Considering those two things, it's simple to see that there will always be players who are much bigger than others. A casual player will never be able to compete with one who his a hardcore player. If you place a hard cap, those who are hardcore players will reach it then be "done" with the game and leave.

The game already has two systems in place to encourage casual players to participate. One is brute, eventually the progress of larger players begins to slow down quite severely. That means that smaller players can catch up more readily (if they complete the quests). The second is team exp bonus. When players are teamed together, they get more exp per kill. This encourages the smaller players to team up with the larger ones. What this also means is that if you are a solo casual player, you will grow MUCH slower than those who meet up with team.

So I make the following suggestions to those of you who are asking for statcaps:

1. Do your quests. By spending a whole month doing nothing but questing will allow your character to grow faster in the next month after that, than if you just grinded the whole two months.

2. Team with others in the realms. Usually, those I travel with are happy to include those in my teams that are of good alignment and disposition. I know there are other teams out there for those of evil align and disposition. Team and make new friends or reconnect with old ones...

I am even glad to have utter newbies join on my teams (get them 6-7 fantas in a few hours), but after they hit a certain brute, I usually have them leave my team and go questing. Hektor is very good at encouraging newbies in this way.


In the end, I think a statcap is a bad idea. You need to balance the needs of Genesis as a whole, and I think the game is already balanced that way.

Hektor
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Re: Statcap

Post by Hektor » 22 Jun 2010 21:22

Having read through all the argumentation back and forth, I see some very interesting pointers for and against stat cap. In essence I agree in total with Earths approach.

I am repeating some arguments here I know but:
Making a hard statcap now in game whose entire balance (both poor and well parts of it) being based on the logarithmic statcap - brute and NPCs size vs myth sized players (especially considering some of the hidden bonuses for a few races and guilds by forcing the hardcap) for +15 years and considering also that so many people enjoy the unlimited stat growth makes me a player voting against the statcap.

I do see the pro's if we were to build the game from scratch and it was easy to implement the other grinding rewards. Since that is not the case, Genesis balance is founded on the brute/logarithmic cap, and wizard manpower being what it is, I feel the cons by far outweigh the pros.
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Velicus
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Re: Statcap

Post by Velicus » 23 Jun 2010 04:39

Makfly wrote:It isn't "work" to grind endlessly, as mentioned above, hell you can script to make the game play itself, while you sleep or watch a movie, or do actual work.
No, that is against the rules. And even if Gorboth doesn't kill you, you will be killed by your competition. Even in the newbie area, it asks, "Grinding. A necessary evil?" If you find grinding to be anything but work, I suspect you have severe OCD or some other psychological ailment.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_(video_gaming)
Earth wrote:If you place a hard cap, those who are hardcore players will reach it then be "done" with the game and leave.
I think if I were Xar and I was the first person to "win" the game and couldn't grow any further, I, as a ranger, would probably go terrorize the Morgul Mages and their various allies until a team managed to band together and kill me, whereupon I could resume grinding. As a player, that would all be very exciting and adrenaline-pumping. I certainly wouldn't say, "Oh, I'm at the top... better quit now" unless I had a heart condition. I can't honestly believe that encouraging Xar continue to generate heaps of corpses all day will make the game better for him or anyone else.

There are many ways to encourage people to keep playing. Anyone who insists that they can think of nothing feasible to replace the pleasure to be had grinding yourself to a bigger size is, as best as I can tell, lying to us or themselves.

And if all else fails, ask the big people what kind of end-game would encourage them to keep playing. Who are these people anyway, who want to keep grinding? I can't get over that. When do we get to talk to them?

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